Possible Attendance at Next Nationals

B

BobZ

Guest
Head count.

Reply if you will definitely attend the next Nationals regardless of where it is held. I know for many the response is depends where and when. I am looking for those who know that they will attend unless there is a major conflict of some kind. No maybes, No thinking about it. Only I will attend wherever it is held.

Bob
 
Bob

Even though there may be many, or just a few, who would travel to any location just to be a part of it all, without knowing the date I doubt that anyone knows what they'll be doing at that time so will be reluctant to answer. Plus, with the Worlds happening next summer down in OZZY land there will probably be a few who have qualified that may forgo the Nationals in order to spend the bigger bucks to go there - and back. But, once you do have the details of where and when, that will be a better time to ask this question. Just a thought.

Dave
 
Thanks for the replies guys.

Just looking for the guys that will do air travel rather than driving time. We will be contacting Match Directors for a possible head count with more info. Possible host clubs with more than 15 benches should contact a board member.

Bob Z
 
Nationals

Bob , hoping you can put something together down there. What about the American Shooting Center?
I have shot there several times and it is a super place to hold something like that.

Frank Tirrell
 
Houston American shooting centers

shadowalker said:
Bob , hoping you can put something together down there. What about the American Shooting Center?
I have shot there several times and it is a super place to hold something like that.

Frank Tirrell
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There are adequat benches on the long distance range. We held BR-50 events there. Target frames would have to built and or real estate signs. Though it is more central it would mean all but approx. 5 shooters would probably have to Fly.
Still with one coast or the other holding the range almost as many would still have to fly.

The question of range fee would have to answered as well as committed assistance in running the match.

It is a task that our club probably could not handle.
 
Perhaps a better approach - -

is to place more emphasis on Regional Shoots. Then, those who have done well can focus on shooting the Big Championship. With the costs of travel continuing to escalate, a regional approach seems more doable for many , to me at least.

Pete
 
Pete Wass said:
is to place more emphasis on Regional Shoots. Then, those who have done well can focus on shooting the Big Championship. With the costs of travel continuing to escalate, a regional approach seems more doable for many , to me at least.

Pete
Click to expand...

Regional matches will continue next year. My original goal was to see who will fly across the county to attend, the most serious of all of us, who will spend serious money for air fare
rental car, motels and entry fee. In previous life (Field Target) I flew to many matches called major matches only two were in driving distance. I attended many National matches knowing almost all would involve substantial cost. I was looking for the guys that know they will not miss the chance to shoot shoulder to shoulder with the best of us, willing to pay the price in 2015. Wherever it is held many more than half of interested shooters will have major expenses.

Thanks for the input. The Regional matches, of course, depend on a club willing to host the match. The same thing is true for a club to host the Nationals. Unless the number of benches is not a problem, then the local club members benefit with a short drive.

Bob Zimmerman
 
National matches

Thanks for the thread Bob, interesting input. For years I have advocated a central location geographically for the Nationals and decided the most practical place is St Louis. These guys have tons of experience in running matches. I called the folks there way back when and asked if their club would consider such a venue........and the answer was YES................. Maybe a new attempt at looking at them would be in order.

Frank
 
National matches

I suspect that the powers to be are going to have the masses qualify for the Nationals because of benches available on particular ranges. If that is in the wind I wish to comment as you are about to kill this sport.

I am an old benchrest shooter 77 years old and been at this game sense 1965 so I feel uniguely qualified to comment on this subject. The Nationals to the novice shooter is like going to the Holy Land on Easter. Imagine just meeting the greats of the game, putting faces on those only heard of, swop stories on methods and theory, get a Tee shirt for braggin' rites, see the new guns and rests, meet fellow shooters like your inspiring self, the awards ceremony and the list goes on and on. Believe me it is like Christmas for a inspired shooter and is like adding gasoline to the fire. BEING ABLE TO BE THERE is the most single inspiring event and braggin' story a novice shooter will ever experience and gentlemen that is 99.9 percent of our group. Why do you want to deprive this group which is the foundation of the association the privilege of this experience simply because you have no for sight and vision?
To me who has seen and felt the elation of just knowing I could just be there and experience all the event encompasses over the many years, feel this is a monumental mistake. EVERYBODY should be able to go to the Nationals no matter what the talent level............ Not just the elite few that are our very best.
I know I am going to hear about we are young and there are not enough benches and it would take some doing and we don't have the time and oh the travel time and money and............ I say "Bull Pucky"

Get a team of men together and find a central spot so the travel will be as equal as possible and get it done. SAME TIME, SAME PLACE, EVERY YEAR.

Frank Tirrell
 
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Frank,

Even though I agree with you 100%, I just don't know where you're getting the idea that qualifying will be required? Last years Nationals started out as being scheduled at Joe Friedrich's range until the question came up about how many benches would be available vs. the potential for how many shooters might want to attend? And, as you said, if qualifying had been required, it would ended up being a race of only the top shooters. And when the powers to be did suggest everyone should qualify, he ran into the same argument you had being throw back into his face. And the rest is history. 85 shooters young and old had a great time with at least half of those not even being a regular part of bench rest shooting in general.

From everything I've heard the St. Louis range is a 60 bench range with fully air cinditioned Clubhouse (where the Wailing Wall is) and facilities to feed a few hundred people. And you'll never find a more centrally located facility. The trick will be to get the manpower to run the match. But, then again, I'm not even sure if they're set up to run a 25M target distance?

Frank, thanks for making this point as it's a good one to keep in the forefront.

Dave Shattuck
 
Frank,

Very few shooters will ever match your experience and your input is always enlightening. An "open" national championship is a wonderful concept and provides a unique experience to all the shooters who attend. The Super Shoot in the centerfire world is the gold standard of this type of event with the support and sponsorship of Kelblys.

However, it will not be possible in 2015 in air rifle benchrest. Here's the challenges,

You need a match director at a range with enough benches.
That match director is then charged with finding:
Lots of experienced scorers, unless you want electronic scoring, then experience with that software.
Volunteers to:
Promote the event, collect fees, manage parking, put targets up, take targets down, provide air.
More volunteers to:
Register shooters in, weigh guns, power test, answer questions, manage any protest process.
Vendors to:
Provide food, drinks, water, pellets, hearing and eye protection, souvenir pins and T shirts.
More vendors willing to:
Accept equipment shipments, discount hotel rooms, help with transportation, rental cars, restaurants.
Even more volunteers to:
Clean up after each day and then at the end to give the range back better than you found it.

Lastly, put the fire department on notice that a convention of possible heart attacks is around the corner.

Point this person out, who can pull this off and the national championship will not be an invitational event. Otherwise, it will not be as it was in 2014. It was great, you and I were there and saw history changed but this is the daily dose of reality. You can thank a vocal few for killing this idea, at least in the short term.

I will have an extra piece of blueberry pie for you. It's difficult to be "wishy washy" with a mouthful of pie.
 
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I was match director of NBRSA events in the mid 90s. Least to say this was a hair pulling endeavor every time even though enjoyable. And those were only regional events on a 20 bench range. So I have some insight into what it would take to pull off a national, just multiply what I had to deal with by a 100 fold. It would not only take one but many many delicated and talented people at a range with facilities and size to handle a nation wide level event. As suggested in prior posts I agree that it should also be a central location so more people could afford both in monetary and in time/travel logistics the ability to attend. To me that pretty much trims down the possibilities to just a handful of ranges.

I also think there should NOT be qualifications to attend. It should be open for all shooters of all levels. A national event can be considered an ambassador event to the sport. It lets the non shooting public see us in a positive light and it also brings new blood into the sport.

Centrally located Nationals, Open to all comers with Sanctioning Membership or membership in sanctions where reciprocity is recognized.

Dixieppc
 
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National matches

Thanks guys for the input and find validity in all comments offered. Please understand that I am not talking about this year but down the road and feel this should be one of them agenda items on our web sight that I see nothing on. This can and should be accomplished by a dedicated team. Work involved? yep! Gonna get much help, prolly not.......but can be done.

thanks...Frank
 
Great Response and discussion!

To All,

The thread tells a short story. No one committed to air fare, motel, entry fees to Travel to a Nationals Match. This is an important factor. The qualification for the Worlds though the sport was young showed that good percentage of those qualifying opted out and the more serious competitors, perhaps with lower scores, made long drives (still expensive) and air travel to attend.

The attendance at last years Nationals in my opinion, gave a false impression of serious bench rest competitors. As it was described as Holy Grail for Novice Bench Rest Competitors, a huge percentage of the shooters were from the local area with equipment and rifles not commonly used in the game. Will some of them upgrade or change equipment Maybe! To my knowledge none of these shooters from the local area have turned in any Scores to the scoreline (if that is any measure of a serious shooter).

Cost is a factor for many! The Regional Events are the core of shoulder to shoulder competition. Next year, if qualifications are required and are conducted at Regional Events the prestige of those events will be elevated, where the major awards will be qualification for the Nationals. Those qualifying will have some status even if they opt out due to cost. I would hope that participation in the Scoreline will be part of the qualification process and the scores in various wind conditions considered. It will be obvious with only scores from the Regional that some that placed at last years Nationals would not qualify due to terrible conditions at one match.

In my personal opinion few if any wanting to attend will be denied in this process.

Hopefully in 2016 a club will emerge with enough staff and resources to conduct a more centrally located Range. If you think about a central location more competitors will incur the high expense of travel as less than 5 shooters are in the central United States. A central location will still make driving a problem. Our club even if we had the Staff would have great difficulty in denying paying members to give up access to the range for three days.

Bob Zimmerman
 
Nationals

I agree with Bob and others on the work involved to run a program such as this. It is monumental and everyone is a critic.... Just ask Garrett.
This is the very reason I personally have always insisted on a membership or dues paying format. A $10.00 membership fee on 1000 members would create $10,000. My point being a little creative crunching of numbers from a host club and a USARBR membership committee could establish the required dues to pull this off. Funds accumulated from this source/membership could pay another qualified and experienced CENTRALIZED range/club to host this venue. Match fees would help us recover part of our initial outlay of cash. A little get together with the host club and our smart guys to get a clear and precise understanding of what is required and wa-la we got a starting place. Are there going to be 100 shooter there? nope, not the first year.......but build it/hold it centralized and they will come.
It is obvious that there are more shooters west of the Mississippi than east and one might argue that the west should host the Nationals. This is not fair to the dedicated East coast boys that would love to shoot but the costs of competing cross country are staggering and will not get better and true if just reversed.

Frank Tirrell
 
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Bob,

I may have this wrong, but if I understand what you are saying correctly, you are promoting requiring Qualification rounds be held in the form of attending, and supposedly doing well, at a Regional match before a shooter could attend the Nationals. If that is correct I couldn't disagree more, the same as I did before last years Nationals when the subject of Qualifying came up.

For one thing, not everyone (as of most shooters) lives in an area near where Regionals matches are held, meaning most shooters would have to travel twice, once in order to Qualify, and then again in order to attend the Nationals, and doubling their costs.

So what if the attendees at the Nationals are mainly rookies and not a regular part of our style of shooting. By leaving the door open will help to increase the numbers, and thus help spread the word about our sport. And, whether those newbies are there or not, the same top guns will be there, and will still win.

The only reason for requiring qualifying should be if the chosen range has a limited number of available benches. But, then again, the range hosting a Nationals should have at least 20 benches, which would allow for up to 60 shooters when shooting 3 relays, and 80 if shooting 4. And there are a lot of ranges around the country that have 20 or more benches.

Why create a scenario where you may cause the overall numbers to be lessened? Why not leave it open to all that want to attend in order to help cover the cost of the Nationals as it costs quite a bit to put any 2-Day event on - with food and trophies. Plus, if the numbers of attendees are lessened, so will be the quality and number of donations, which could even spread into not having the Targets donated as they were this years Nationals by Pyramyd Air.

Just something to think about. And just my opinion.

Dave Shattuck

P.S. I just read what Frank posted above and agree with everything he said 100%, so please add that to my thoughts as well.
 
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Bob,

While I disagree with your "state of the sport" assessment, that discussion is for another day.

I do agree that a national event in 2015 is absolutely essential. To go backwards after what has been accomplished is unacceptable. If this means that the national championship will be an invitational event based on a qualification process, then do what is necessary with the venues available.

Yes, there are disadvantages to this requirement. There will always be compromises that will favor some and not others. It is not the ideal but few things are during the maturation of any sport. Those that refuse to see the obvious will continue to be the vocal minority. Their particular dysfunction should not be the only voice heard.
 
Lets get an accurate poll on club size

all of those who organize matches please let us know who many shooters attend your matches on a regular basis. The reason for this is it will give real number on those who may attend a national match.

I honestly think that at the last national the majority of shooter were from AZ . And novice shooter in the sport wouldn't take 3 days plus travel time to get to where ever a national is held .having qualifying regional matches really wouldn't restrict any one from coming as most areas that have that have matches would be able to send their whole membership.

Thanks

I do agree that a national event in 2015 is absolutely essential. To go backwards after what has been accomplished is unacceptable. If this means that the national championship will be an invitational event based on a qualification process, then do what is necessary with the venues available.

Yes, there are disadvantages to this requirement. There will always be compromises that will favor some and not others. It is not the ideal but few things are during the maturation of any sport. Those that refuse to see the obvious will continue to be the vocal minority. Their particular dysfunction should not be the only voice heard.[/QUOTE]
 
There is one person who can answer that question. The registration form from the nationals asked for a great deal of information, including where you were from.

Then again, any national event that is open to all comers is going to have a disproportionate number of competitors from the home state. Not sure what the point is?

It appears that the 2015 national event will have some type of qualifying process and wherever it is held, the commitment to travel is mandatory, be it 3 days or 3 hours. In that case, the home state may again have the largest contingent of shooters.

My biggest disappointment will be that we will not see the international shooters coming. My hope was that our national championship would eclipse all others as time went on. My call is to "Bring Back Arizona".
 
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