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NesikaChad
Guest
Just thought these might stir up conversation.
N
NesikaChad
Guest
Why?
It already shoots .096" for five shots with factory BH ammo. (100 yd)
I'll just leave it be. Besides, I don't like Marine Tex.
It already shoots .096" for five shots with factory BH ammo. (100 yd)
I'll just leave it be. Besides, I don't like Marine Tex.
B
Big Al
Guest
I can imagine the contortions you have to go through to avoid any skim coating to get perfect contact.
D
Dennis Sorensen
Guest
That is a pretty strong and stable stock. I doubt the pillars added any accuracy.
Butch Lambert
Active member
Chad,what are you trying to say?
Butch
Butch
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NesikaChad
Guest
First, not trying to say anything really. Just thought this would generate some good "bench racing" conversation.
The action is a Nesika Model F. It's a very, very early design. While at Nesika one afternoon, we (this is back in 2004) got into this high minded/high spirited debate over the cardinal rules of accuracy minded gunmaking. Use of muzzle brakes, recoil lugs, bedding, repeater vs. single shot, etc.
So, I decided to conduct a little experiment.
This rifle has a brake (Vaise), no recoil lug (other than the tang), is not bedded (in the conventional sense), and is a blind box repeater.
I built the gun in seven hours. Started at three in the afternoon and by 10pm we were shooting groups in Cor-Bon's test tunnel.
The pillars were glued in using 5 minute epoxy, intentionally left sitting proud, and then finished machined to depth when the mill ran the finish passes to bring everything to size. So, they finish flush with the floor of the inlet.
This particular stock wood comes from Russia. It's a very, very, very high resin content wood. It machines like a block of delrin (only much more abrasive) The "finish" on the wood is nothing more than Johnson's paste wax used for hardwood floors. Nice for a working gun. Get a ding/scratch, just sand it out and schmag another coat of wax on it, then buff. It's very dense and can be kind of a pain to work with because it's very brittle. You have to treat it a bit differently than more conventional woods when machining, filing on it because it's prone to chipping on outside sharp corners.
As far as groups go, Garrett Caldwell (a former employee of Nesika) shot the test groups (cause I suck at bench shooting for some reason) and it hammered a .096" center to center with Black Hills ammo loaded up with 55 grain Noslers. Neither of us could believe it. We (he) shot the snot out of it and the groups were very consistent, never wandering outside of a .100" circle.
It's not conclusive, but I think it really does suggest that if good parts are used in conjunction with a careful application of fundamental machine work, the "cardinal rules of accurate gunmaking" don't necessarily always apply. FWIW I've shot this gun in 100+ degree temps and when it's been -10 outside and it doesn't skip a beat. Groups always seem hold zero and group sizes are very very consistent.
Enjoy.
C
The action is a Nesika Model F. It's a very, very early design. While at Nesika one afternoon, we (this is back in 2004) got into this high minded/high spirited debate over the cardinal rules of accuracy minded gunmaking. Use of muzzle brakes, recoil lugs, bedding, repeater vs. single shot, etc.
So, I decided to conduct a little experiment.
This rifle has a brake (Vaise), no recoil lug (other than the tang), is not bedded (in the conventional sense), and is a blind box repeater.
I built the gun in seven hours. Started at three in the afternoon and by 10pm we were shooting groups in Cor-Bon's test tunnel.
The pillars were glued in using 5 minute epoxy, intentionally left sitting proud, and then finished machined to depth when the mill ran the finish passes to bring everything to size. So, they finish flush with the floor of the inlet.
This particular stock wood comes from Russia. It's a very, very, very high resin content wood. It machines like a block of delrin (only much more abrasive) The "finish" on the wood is nothing more than Johnson's paste wax used for hardwood floors. Nice for a working gun. Get a ding/scratch, just sand it out and schmag another coat of wax on it, then buff. It's very dense and can be kind of a pain to work with because it's very brittle. You have to treat it a bit differently than more conventional woods when machining, filing on it because it's prone to chipping on outside sharp corners.
As far as groups go, Garrett Caldwell (a former employee of Nesika) shot the test groups (cause I suck at bench shooting for some reason) and it hammered a .096" center to center with Black Hills ammo loaded up with 55 grain Noslers. Neither of us could believe it. We (he) shot the snot out of it and the groups were very consistent, never wandering outside of a .100" circle.
It's not conclusive, but I think it really does suggest that if good parts are used in conjunction with a careful application of fundamental machine work, the "cardinal rules of accurate gunmaking" don't necessarily always apply. FWIW I've shot this gun in 100+ degree temps and when it's been -10 outside and it doesn't skip a beat. Groups always seem hold zero and group sizes are very very consistent.
Enjoy.
C
H
hulk
Guest
Hmmm
Maybe this is further evidence that having a great barrel continues to be more important than everything else, combined.
Maybe this is further evidence that having a great barrel continues to be more important than everything else, combined.
K Battenbough
Member
Chad
Nice to see you are keeping busy and living the dream! makes all that time in Iraq worthwhile in the end, keep up the good work sir.
KB
Nice to see you are keeping busy and living the dream! makes all that time in Iraq worthwhile in the end, keep up the good work sir.
KB
Were you on the clock this whole time? Were the others in the spirited debate on the clock?
Sorry if it looks like I'm giving you a hard time here. I'm not. Just trying to get a little info. Being privy to the ins & outs of D Arms I've heard many grumblings about how few rifles Nesika shipped every month contributing to the bottom line of the Big D parent company. If they can be built in 7 hours I can understand most of the grumblings. Seriously though, I know it takes much more attention to detail than can be applied in 7 hours to produce the consistent level of product that Nesika was shooting for. Having been an inmate at Big D for half of the 90's I understand how the spirited debates can consume more of the productive day than customers are paying for. And how ineffective management was. My question just below your quote is not an accusation of you spending time on the clock. I don't know, that's why I asked the question. I got sucked into a few, ok more than a few debates while on the clock but did spend many nights working on my own projects off the clock till 2-3AM.
How much building did you do in 7 hours? Stock from a blank? etc?
Was Neiska producing the # or rifles a month that would support paying the # of employees it had?
Did BigD acquiring Neiska cause orders to fall off leaving more employees than sales would support? (this is my guess)
Again, I'm not chastising you or any of the workers at Neiska or bigD. I firmly believe that all the problems that DArms or ANY company have are the direct result of POOR MANAGEMENT at the very top. If sales wouldn't support the # of employees that Neiska had then management should have one of 2 things.
1) Lay off some help
2) sell more rifles
If bigD was precluded from laying off any of Neiska's help by contractual obligations then management made a poor decision accepting the contract.
If sales were good and production levels could have risen without sacrificing quality then it's management's fault for not making it happen.
The machine work on the inlet on the stock looks great.
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NesikaChad
Guest
Wow, boy did this go off in a direction I never imagined.
I had prepared a long winded dissertation addressing your comments. Then reality hit after taking a cigarrette break. (I AM on the clock btw, My clock
)If you want to know more about Dakota/Nesika's defalcations, you call me, introduce yourself and I'll consider telling you a floor level management perspective. I'm not going to pick scabs on the internet.
I find this post off content and a bit uncouth.
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ekaphoto
Guest
I am not even close to being a gunsmith so forgive me if my question sounds stupid. What about pillar bedding where the onlt contact with the stock is through the pillars insted of full contact like in a bedding job? I realize thes may not work with a hard recoil rifle, but with a bechrest rifel with low recoil. Instad of free floating the barrel you free float the stock and the pillars are the only contact points? Very intresting pillar job you did. Very nice wood as well.
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NesikaChad
Guest
There are a lot of ways to skin cats.
This is just one of many. I've seen where guys have gone so far to make little morse taper studs that thread into the receiver and then register in tapered bores/pillars glued into stocks. The gun shot well although taking it out of the stock was a little more work.
A stock inlet's sole function is to provide a tension free environment for an action to register to. That's it. If that is achieved with bedding compound or a very stable parent material (the stock) then I can't help but feel that the rifle will shoot well. (assuming all the other components are doing their part too)
Anschutz uses a strip of "computer mouse pad" in their aluminum stocks and those guns shoot well. CG millenium uses a elastomer pillar/recoil lug arrangement that also works.
Lots of answers to this problem.
This is just one of many. I've seen where guys have gone so far to make little morse taper studs that thread into the receiver and then register in tapered bores/pillars glued into stocks. The gun shot well although taking it out of the stock was a little more work.
A stock inlet's sole function is to provide a tension free environment for an action to register to. That's it. If that is achieved with bedding compound or a very stable parent material (the stock) then I can't help but feel that the rifle will shoot well. (assuming all the other components are doing their part too)
Anschutz uses a strip of "computer mouse pad" in their aluminum stocks and those guns shoot well. CG millenium uses a elastomer pillar/recoil lug arrangement that also works.
Lots of answers to this problem.
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NesikaChad
Guest
Kev,
You watch your butt and get home safe.
Things here are well.
All the best buddy.
C
F
frwillia
Guest
Your initial post got me thinking about the CZ527 Hornet I am going to bed. It came with out a front pillar. I ended up coming to the same conclusion you expressed so well in the quote above.
As you doubtless know, the CZ527 is basically a micro-Mauser action with integral recoil lug. Looking at what you have in the picture, I think I'll add a front pillar "just" long enough that it keeps the magazine box from touching the bottom of the receiver, mill out a bit of clearance around it and where the recoil lug will fit, and then bed the front of the action only with the existing rear pillar in place (after making sure there is some "draft" on the recoil lug of course). The rear pillar is dead flush with the stock material though I can take a couple thou pass with the mill to make sure, and to make sure the receiver doesn't contact the stock in any unintended locations.
Thanks for the "outside the box" picture. Much appreciated by this beginner.
I'll read any others you post with some interest.
Fitch