On Target, tool for measuring targets/groups

S

_Shorty

Member
Looks like Jeff's nearly done with the initial work for his target group calculator program. If anyone wants to check it out, he's ready for some feedback.

http://www.ontargetcalc.com/

It's pretty neat. You scan a target, and then you can mark your bullet holes and it'll give you some numbers. Seems to be a lot quicker than actually measuring targets with some calipers, at least if you have a bunch of targets to go through.

webmaster@ontargetcalc.com for any feedback.

Eleygroup.jpg
 
Great Tool

Shorty I love the program. I played with it of hours but have to go to work
I will continue tomarow

I have some thoughts
1 need a place for weather
2 in the NOTES window you have to use the space bar to get to the next line tab gets you to the next "box" and enter does nothing?????

Thanks
Paul
 
I wonder . . .

Wonder how the NBRSA & IBS boys would take to this new "computer age" idea. They have been measuring groups shot in their tournaments for the past 50+ years with the reticule rule, designed by old John Sweeny.

JonesReticuleRule.jpg


Wonder if this new thing would be more accurate? It sure would not be any faster, with the extra step of scanning each target. And: In Tournament competition the only measurement used or needed is the center to center distance of the two widest shots, in inches.

As for using the computer to record scored: The first time I saw one being used for that purpose was at George Kelbly's range in 1978 at the Centerfire Super Shoot. It broke down half way through the tournament.

Joe Haller
 
I don't think it'll be any faster for getting only the group size. But if there are times that you would like the other numbers as well, it can save a lot of time. I went through 10 targets with six bulls on them the other day, and I'd hate to think how long it would have taken me to manually get all the numbers that the program could tell me. If I only wanted group size, it'd be faster with calipers, I'm sure. But I think I can be more accurate about where the holes are by doing it this way, and possibly get a better measurement as a result, if I'm more concerned about it in a particular situation. But take something like the average-to-center value, jeez, I wouldn't want to figure out where the center of the group is and measure the distance to that center of the group for every single hole with calipers. I'd be there all day. I don't imagine it'll appeal to everyone, but you may find a use for it. I found it pretty handy when I was testing ammo last week and this week.
 
Ive been using a similar program GSC (group size calculator) by Ralph Wilson. plenty neat program. I'd like to try on target too and compare.
 
Sounds interesting.

Has anybody seen those cute little devices that score ISSF smallbore targets just by running them thru a scanner driven by pinch rollers? The technology must be similar.
 
Plenty neat program!!. however i'd like to see 4 features that i find most useful to me (not neccesarily to everybody). 1) distance of groupcenter from your aiming point given in horizontal and vertical distances (not in distance and bearing). 2) after selecting all the shots fired there should be a way to "deselect" a shot or shots (for whatever reason the shooter thinks to improve his grouping :D) 3) a spread file of the group shot giving horizontal and vertical distances of individual shots. 4) a way of combining graphicaly and analytically several groupshots. i'd like to be able to combine them by groupcenter and/or aimpoint.---well thats about it. Hope I helped and good luck!
 
bagul said:
Plenty neat program!!. however i'd like to see 4 features that i find most useful to me (not neccesarily to everybody). 1) distance of groupcenter from your aiming point given in horizontal and vertical distances (not in distance and bearing). 2) after selecting all the shots fired there should be a way to "deselect" a shot or shots (for whatever reason the shooter thinks to improve his grouping :D) 3) a spread file of the group shot giving horizontal and vertical distances of individual shots. 4) a way of combining graphicaly and analytically several groupshots. i'd like to be able to combine them by groupcenter and/or aimpoint.---well thats about it. Hope I helped and good luck!
Click to expand...

bagul,

Thanks for the suggestions for improving OnTarget. Here's what I've been working on.

1. I was already working on the point of aim and have it working for the next version. Set the point and it will display the offset horiz and vert.

2. I don't have point selection and editing. It's easy to just delete the group and rebuild without the offending holes, should only take a few moments.

3. I'm adding an export feature to save all project data into a delimited text file that is easily imported into Excel. It saves all of the group data in the project. It's really hard for me to build in all of the reporting that is needed. With the export to Excel the users can make up exactly what they need. This feature is being tested and will be included in the next version of OnTarget.

4. I'm a little unclear on this one but you should be able to combine group information pretty easily once the data is in a spreadsheet.

I'll post on this thread when these new features are released.

BTW, I released OnTarget v1.06. It has a few new features and fixes a few bugs. Check the history page on the website for more info.

Jeff59

http://www.ontargetcalc.com
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jeff,
I write the Scoring programs for RBA, IR 50/50, ARA and IBS Scores shooting.
Have you tried to make a program that could score 25 bulls on a target? If you could find a way to do this and export the results into Excel or CSV I would make provisions to import it into the scoring program or write a standalone program that would utilize your data. If you have any interest just email or PM me. If you have not seen my programs you can download one here:
http://www.rimfirebenchrest.com/
Best Regards,
Doug
 
Jeff

I haven’t tried the new version yet, but the changes and fixes look like great additions.

I’m not absolutely certain about Bagul’s point # 4 above, but he may be referring to an ability to superimpose a number of groups into a composite group which would allow you to make a comparison of say 5 - 5 shot groups to a single 25 shot group for the same testing session.
I’ve often found it useful to make this comparison, because it shows the group growth with additional shots and it gives a more accurate indication of “Point of Impact” vs “Point of Aim”.

I’ve been playing with this program since the release of version 1.04 and while it’s not as accurate as using a plug and magnifier, you won’t believe how close it comes!

For you guys who haven’t tried this software yet, you should take a look. I’d been working with two other programs with many of these same features and this is far more “User Friendly” plus it’s free.
Speaking of free, I’ve downloaded literally hundreds of freeware/shareware programs over the years and I fully expect to donate to this project in the near future. It will only be the second time I’ve done so!
 
HuskerP7M8 said:
I’m not absolutely certain about Bagul’s point # 4 above, but he may be referring to an ability to superimpose a number of groups into a composite group which would allow you to make a comparison of say 5 - 5 shot groups to a single 25 shot group for the same testing session.
I’ve often found it useful to make this comparison, because it shows the group growth with additional shots and it gives a more accurate indication of “Point of Impact” vs “Point of Aim”.
Click to expand...

It makes more sense now, it would be an interesting feature. The program could switch to "Superimpose Mode", hide the target picture, then draw all of the groups with either common group centers or common aim points. Display the information as if it were one big group. I'll get this on the list for future development.

BTW Thanks for the "user friendly" comment. That is one of the primary design considerations for my programs. Another is to build a solid base and let the users define the improvements. That way I can provide a program that does what the users really need, not what I think they need.

Jeff

www.ontargetcalc.com
 
Here are some ideas.

I started working on a similar program but my programming for profit projects have seemed to take over. Anyway, here are a couple things I was considering and you might as well.

1. Compress your bitmaps when saving them to the data file. This will save considerably on disk space usage.

2. Consider support for "ladder testing". I made targets up with 20 bulls and shot each shot in the ladder test at a different one. Using the program, the user can mark each bull/shot combination. The program can then calculate groups from adjacent shots (say 3 or 5) and figure out which sequence of shots gives the best group and, therefore, the best accuracy load.

3. Allow user to enter velocities for each shot, interface with ballistics software and calculate/simulate longer range groups. Would be very helpfull for 1000 yard BR people who can't test at 1000 yards.

4. Interface with Microsoft Access to keep a database of guns/loads/groups.

5. Interface with a digitizer that would speed the process by allowing target scorers to simply digitize the shots without having to use a camera or scanner.

What language is your program written in? Since you are going the shareware route, maybe consider an open souce project and get other programmers involved.

If you are using a language I know, maybe we could work together and get more done faster. My first suggestion though would be to lock down the program and charge for it. lol
 
Print

Jeff, when will a printing feature be added to the program?

I really would like to be able to print the group with the data supperimposed on the image.

George
 
He has spent some time working on that, and debating how much time to spend on it, since you can use the 'save project as graphic' feature, and print that out. It would be nicer to be able to skip that step, though. ;) *nudge* *nudge* hehe
 
Doug Rumbaugh said:
I started working on a similar program but my programming for profit projects have seemed to take over. Anyway, here are a couple things I was considering and you might as well.

1. Compress your bitmaps when saving them to the data file. This will save considerably on disk space usage.

2. Consider support for "ladder testing". I made targets up with 20 bulls and shot each shot in the ladder test at a different one. Using the program, the user can mark each bull/shot combination. The program can then calculate groups from adjacent shots (say 3 or 5) and figure out which sequence of shots gives the best group and, therefore, the best accuracy load.

3. Allow user to enter velocities for each shot, interface with ballistics software and calculate/simulate longer range groups. Would be very helpfull for 1000 yard BR people who can't test at 1000 yards.

4. Interface with Microsoft Access to keep a database of guns/loads/groups.

5. Interface with a digitizer that would speed the process by allowing target scorers to simply digitize the shots without having to use a camera or scanner.

What language is your program written in? Since you are going the shareware route, maybe consider an open souce project and get other programmers involved.

If you are using a language I know, maybe we could work together and get more done faster. My first suggestion though would be to lock down the program and charge for it. lol
Click to expand...


Doug,

Don't give up your programming efforts. There were already several products released for measuring groups but I went ahead because I thought I had some good ideas. You should do the same. There is still a need in this market for a good comprehensive commercial product and I don't have the time to fill that need. The items you have listed are well suited to an advanced product that is commercially distributed.

On your first point, I am using jpeg compression on the bitmap data that is saved into the .tgx project file. This is the same compression that is used by most digital cameras. Without the compression the .tgx file could be 5 to 10 times bigger depending on the source of the image.

OnTarget is written using Microsoft Visual C++ with MFC. I've used the project as a test bed for programming techniques that I have already incorporated into some other projects so I'm unable to go the open source route.

I have a new version of OnTarget that is in the final testing stage. After it is released I'd like to talk to you about some features that would be better suited to your product than mine. Some are my ideas, many have been suggested by OnTarget users. I'll be happy to help out any way I can.

Jeff

www.ontargetcalc.com
 
Travelor said:
Jeff, when will a printing feature be added to the program?

I really would like to be able to print the group with the data supperimposed on the image.

George
Click to expand...

George,

I'm sorry but for now the only way to print an OnTarget project is to save either the current view or the entire project as a graphic and print it using another program. You can use Paint, Microsoft Word, or any other program that can load a graphic.

As Shorty said I have looked into the printing and haven't had the time necessary to work out the problems. I hope to have the printing working in a future version of OnTarget.

Jeff

www.ontargetcalc.com
 
For those who can, I use Paint Shop Pro which has a capture feature. I can capture the target from ON Target with all the text at the appropriate size and then print or save the target from there.
 
Jeff59 said:
Doug,

Don't give up your programming efforts. There were already several products released for measuring groups but I went ahead because I thought I had some good ideas. You should do the same. There is still a need in this market for a good comprehensive commercial product and I don't have the time to fill that need. The items you have listed are well suited to an advanced product that is commercially distributed.

On your first point, I am using jpeg compression on the bitmap data that is saved into the .tgx project file. This is the same compression that is used by most digital cameras. Without the compression the .tgx file could be 5 to 10 times bigger depending on the source of the image.

OnTarget is written using Microsoft Visual C++ with MFC. I've used the project as a test bed for programming techniques that I have already incorporated into some other projects so I'm unable to go the open source route.

I have a new version of OnTarget that is in the final testing stage. After it is released I'd like to talk to you about some features that would be better suited to your product than mine. Some are my ideas, many have been suggested by OnTarget users. I'll be happy to help out any way I can.

Jeff

www.ontargetcalc.com
Click to expand...

Jeff,

Very interesting. I suspected you were using Visual C++ with MFC. I have used it since Version 1.0 many moons ago. As a matter of fact, I have to get back to my Visual C++ Graphical User Interface for Finite Element Numerical Groundwater Flow and Solute Transport models. lol

I have written numerous commercial programs with it in the Environmental Engineering/Hydrogeology arena. As with you, the ballistics software I was messing with has its root in this large base of souce code I have written over the years. It seems a number of shooters are dabbling with programming for the shooting world niche market. I think they have all realized that shooters in general would require a large amount of technical support for a fully functional product. They also realize that the amount of money most shooters would pay for a program would not make it profitable considering this potential high volume of technical support required. Maybe the solution is to sell the program for a relatively small amount of money and put in a 900 number and charge for support.

Those of use with the interest and the skill set should really find a way to put our heads together and get that full featured program written instead of reinventing similar yet mutually exclusive wheels.

Anyway, good luck with your efforts. Looks good so far and let me know if I can be of some assistance in your efforts.
 
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