New To Case Neck Preparation

E

Ed Willers

New member
I'm starting my first adventure in "accuracy" case preparation. Previously all I did was debur flash holes and primer pockets, trim to length and re-size. With this rifle I want to do some neck preparation. I'm still using a factory chamber so turning to a tight chamber isn't necessary.
I want to trim enough to even out the highs of the neck so it's uniform in thickness. But, trimming the outside won't even up the inside so the neck's grip on the bullet will not be uniform, will it? I read once that a way to uniform the inside of the neck is to is to push a resizing ball through it. Causing the highs & lows to be pushed to the outside of the neck. Then trim the outside of the neck to remove the highs and make uniform. I will be using once fired brass that was fired in someone else's rifle.
I haven't bought the dies yet. The current plan is a case bump die and a Bushing type neck resizing die. Will I need the full length resizing die to get the resizing ball, even if it's only used once? If I have a full length resizing die will I ever need the bump die, or can the full length die take it's place?

Thanks for any help.
Gregg
 
Gregg, most of us dont use the ex pander ball for the sizing dies. Whoever you buy your neck turner from should also offer an expanding mandrel which is needed to make sure your necks have the right inside dimension for the mandrel on the turner. Yes there are 2 diff sizes though only slightly. That is what will accomplish the expansion of the case neck and as you said push the brass from inside to outside so that it can be turned.
For a long time I used to think the inside should be turned and then the outside but after I started turning brass and then checking it with a mic I find that there is little or no perceivable variance in the neck thickness. Which would be there if it were necessary to uniform both inside and outside.
 
Ed Willers said:
... But, trimming the outside won't even up the inside so the neck's grip on the bullet will not be uniform, will it?
Thanks for any help.
Gregg
Click to expand...
Not true Gregg. Most neck turning tools use a proper tool grind for cutting brass. That means it actually is sharpened the 'wrong' way. It will both cut the material off, but press it at the same time. The inside of your neck will be burnished to a perfect finish inside, actually nicer than the outside when done. It'll also be roll-formed down to diameter, even if it was slightly too big. The mandrel on the neck turning tool will determine the eventual finish and size. Don't forget to use good lube on the mandrel.
 
Thanks Vern & 4Mesh. That tells me that the bump die & neck sizer will be enough.

Another question. What is a good mandrel lube? Case resizing lube, ground mica, die wax, FP-10 gun oil?
Thanks again,
Gregg
 
Ed Willers said:
I'm starting my first adventure in "accuracy" case preparation. Previously all I did was debur flash holes and primer pockets, trim to length and re-size. With this rifle I want to do some neck preparation. I'm still using a factory chamber so turning to a tight chamber isn't necessary.
I want to trim enough to even out the highs of the neck so it's uniform in thickness. But, trimming the outside won't even up the inside so the neck's grip on the bullet will not be uniform, will it? I read once that a way to uniform the inside of the neck is to is to push a resizing ball through it. Causing the highs & lows to be pushed to the outside of the neck. Then trim the outside of the neck to remove the highs and make uniform. I will be using once fired brass that was fired in someone else's rifle.
I haven't bought the dies yet. The current plan is a case bump die and a Bushing type neck resizing die. Will I need the full length resizing die to get the resizing ball, even if it's only used once? If I have a full length resizing die will I ever need the bump die, or can the full length die take it's place?

Thanks for any help.
Gregg
Click to expand...

Ed, enjoy your adventure but keep these thoughts in mind;

-#1 turning necks for a chamber that's already oversized is not only a waste of time, it's deleterious to accuracy. Neck turning is best reserved for tight-necked chambers.
-#2 "bump" dies don't exist. Well, bump dies that WORK don't exist. You need to use a full length sizing die. Every time.
-#3 these full length sizing dies are a seriously big deal. They're expensive, they're chamber-specific and they're necessary for really high level accuracy. They are scrupulously fitted for minimal sizing. Typically a full length sizer will size the body at the shoulder down by .001 and the base .002. You then set the shoulder bump as little as you physically can, definitely .001 or less.
-#4 you have to question whether or not this is warranted for a factory rifle.


May I suggest that you use the bushing type neck die only??? Keep your lugs greased..... this means GREASE your bolt lugs every 25rds or you will gall them, a $500.00 fix. When your brass gets too tight set it aside just in case you do luck into a sizing die that fits your chamber.

enjoy


al
 
Thanks Al,
I would think that removing just enough from the neck to remove the high spots only would help increase accureacy since the bullet would be held with uniform tension all around. There probably would be some more clearance between the case neck and chamber in some spots but in others it would be the same. That makes me think that there would be a more uniform bullet release, to increase accuracy. Am I wrong?
Makes me wonder if it would be more important to remove the minimum from each neck or to find the one that I remove the most from then make them all the same. I suspect the later but that's what comes from having all your knowledge on a subject from reading.
 
Gregg

You left out a lot of important information. What cartridge? What rifle? What sort of accuracy do you experience now? What sort of accuracy improvement do you expect to see from your new case prep steps?

Depending on these very important items, we may have different answers to your questions.

Turning necks and other "accuracy" case preps will certainly give you a lot of good experience for when you have to do it for real, but it may be nothing more than the physical experience that you'll be gaining. Because, the only way for you to know if you're doing things correctly is if you actually see some improvements. Otherwise, you'll never know.

JMHO

Ray
 
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Ed Willers said:
Thanks Al,
I would think that removing just enough from the neck to remove the high spots only would help increase accureacy since the bullet would be held with uniform tension all around. There probably would be some more clearance between the case neck and chamber in some spots but in others it would be the same. That makes me think that there would be a more uniform bullet release, to increase accuracy. Am I wrong?
Makes me wonder if it would be more important to remove the minimum from each neck or to find the one that I remove the most from then make them all the same. I suspect the later but that's what comes from having all your knowledge on a subject from reading.
Click to expand...

First let me agree with Cheech, sometimes it's worth it just for the practice!

Regarding neckturning....

The concept was developed years ago by some very smart people who recognized a problem. The problem is inbore yaw, bullets going down the bore "cocked over" instead of straight. They explored ways to guide the bullet into the lands, the throat, in a linear or straight fashion. A long freebore helps in this regard but almost requires you to jump bullets. Tight neck tolerance and concentric necks act as a guiding means under ll conditions. This is where turned necks shine.

In your case there is no gain IMO, for either of your two reasons.

Shoot over a chronograph and try to establish a correlation between "bullet release" or neck tension and velocity.

It's all fun

al
 
Ed Willers said:
Another question. What is a good mandrel lube? Case resizing lube, ground mica, die wax, FP-10 gun oil?
Thanks again,
Gregg
Click to expand...
On a carbide mandrel, I've used Imperial wax with decent success, but, other guys I know prefer to use moly/graphite based lubes and intuition tells me that might be a better lube. Dirtier, but, probably better. Wax works for me. I've also used the water based case sizing lubes like RCBS case lube. Those are not all created equal. I buy a commercial product for at work that works wonders for me. I've used the RCBS stuff and that is decent, but some other brands are real thin, and simply do not work as nice. As if they're watered down. So, be careful there. Of the stuff you can get in the stores, RCBS was about the nicest I used.

For bolt lugs, I see you've had advice to lube them and that's good advice, all except using grease. I'd get some Jet-Black or similar anti-seize paste for stainless. That type of lube stays on much better when extreme pressure is involved. Again, yes it's black and messy, but it's the best stuff for the job. Brownell's thread assembly paste is really nice too. Expensive, but really nice.
 
The cartridge is 6 mm Remington. What I want is to wring the most out of the rifle and cartridge I can. I will be shooting it off the bench or prone, depending on the competition. Not in formal benchrest however.
The rifle now don't laugh, is a Ruger No 1 Varmint. I'm hoping to get groups in the 0.5" size, many of the 6 Rems in the Ruger 1 group can do this.
I haven't fired it yet. I needed to figure what type of dies to buy and other equipment to reach my goal. I think now I have a better idea on what direction to take.
I will start working up loads without doing any neck turning and once I find some decent, maybe not best, loads turn some necks and compare the results. I will be using bushing type dies and micrometer seating dies.
There's an awful lot of bullets out there now and what to start with is a puzzle to me. Probably start with one of the VV powders they work awfully well in my other rifles.
 
No, people TOLD you "many of the 6 Rems in the Ruger 1 group can do this."

First thing to learn is, "people lie."

Keep good notes, don't lie to yourself and you'll save lots of money over the years.

opinionsby


al
 
Ed Willers said:
I haven't bought the dies yet. The current plan is a case bump die and a Bushing type neck resizing die. Will I need the full length resizing die to get the resizing ball, even if it's only used once? If I have a full length resizing die will I ever need the bump die, or can the full length die take it's place?
Click to expand...
I'd start off with an inexpensive full length die set and go from there. When the day comes that you think the cases need something more than they're getting, then go spend on something more specialized.

I don't think you're expecting too much from the Ruger #1. And regardless of the rifle, feeding it better ammo can't hurt.
 
Some random thoughts from left field:

1. If you shoot an unsatisfactory group with the #1, how do you know that it's the rifle, the load, etc. rather than something else? A given group is produced by the total "system", not just the rifle or load.

2. Are you confident in your measuring tools and your use of them? If you can't trust your measurements, you don't have a place to start. For example, if you want to measure the shoulder bump of your dies, do you have the right equipment?

3. What is the twist rate of your barrel? Have you confirmed that? I've seen #1's that had oddball twist rates.

4. What kind of optics do you have on the #1? You can't shoot better than you can see.

5. Do you use wind flags when you test?
 
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Ed

There ain't no flies on either the Ruger #1 Rifle or the 6mm Remington cartridge. I'd suggest doing what 4Mesh said - "start off with an inexpensive full length die set and go from there. When the day comes that you think the cases need something more than they're getting, then go spend on something more specialized."

I have shot a 244 Ackley for a lot of years and I think you'll find that either the W-W or R-P brass will be pretty good right out of the box. It probably won't need any neck-turning at all. The only thing I'd recommend is that you get a bunch of it (one lot) and weight sort it to eliminate the oddballs. In the last lot of W-W that I bought in bulk, I tossed only 15 out of 200. That's pretty darn good. And, you can use the culls for setting dies, adjusting a neck-turner if you get to that point, or even for foulers.

Good Luck

Ray
 
For a turning lube, one of the neck turner manuf. told me it is not just a matter of friction.
He makes carbide mandrels for his turners and said that in his opinion the dry lubs or wax were not sufficient even on the carbide.
He suggested a liquid lube to also help with temp control.
I use the old standby of mobile 1 and STP mixture.
Works great for me and I dont have any problem getting it off.
A good washing 2 times in lacquer thinner gets it all out.
 
Lou Murdica said:
-#1 turning necks for a chamber that's already oversized is not only a waste of time, it's deleterious to accuracy. Neck turning is best reserved for tight-necked chambers.
-#2 "bump" dies don't exist. Well, bump dies that WORK don't exist. You need to use a full length sizing die. Every time.

Ed do not listen to any of these statements, these are two of the worst statements I've ever seen posted to date.
yes a turned neck always helps if done right.
Yes there are factory bump dies that work. Trust me, I shoot more in a month than this guy shoots in a year.
Click to expand...

Hey Lou, thanks for helping out :)

(Ed, Lou's a World Class BenchRest shooter)

Now........... Where does Ed go to buy this factory bump die? What brand do you recommend?

al
 
Back when I lived in Seattle and shot in a factory br match every month I tried all sorts of stuff to improve the accuracy of my (obviously) factory rifle, and since have learned a few things about factory chambers and accuracy. I will state emphatically that the only advantage achieved by neck turning is to the manufacturer of your cases. You'll find that necks will split very soon if cases need to be turned very much at all. You'd be better off to buy a fairly large lot of cases, then measure their necks for thickness at several places around the neck (or use a tool that uses a 0.0001" dial indicator so that the cases can be rotated on the tool's mandrel while you eyeball the indicator). With a factory chamber necks that are ±0.0005 work as well as those that are closer, and better than those that aren't. That is a case should not vary in neck thickness more than 0.0005" all the way around.

A properly adjusted FL die that pushes the shoulder back ~0.002" will produce cases that are capable of shooting as well as the rifle and shooter allow. I've discovered this over the years by noticing that new cases shot better than neck sized cases in factory chambers in a lot of cases. A bushing FL die that will allow minimum neck sizing so that an expander ball won't be needed is the die to have. Redding, Forster, and Hornady all produce bushing dies, but I only have experience with Redding's dies which are well made and can be used with Wilson bushings as well. The others use maker specific bushings as I understand.

What works for a minimum size chamber for BR shooting isn't always applicable to factory chambers, unfortunately.

I've never owned or even fired a Ruger #1, but from what I've read and heard some considerable fussing may be needed to get the rifle to shoot its very best too.

If you're really hot to turn necks, buy some 7x57 cases, run them through a 6 mm Rem FL die which should produce cases with thicker necks. I'm not sure if 8x57 cases would work, but if they would they'd produce even thicker necks. That being said I've spent time resizing .308 Win's to .243 Win to get thick necks that could be turned to give 0.002" total clearance in the .243's chamber. Lots of work, but the result wasn't any better that I could tell on paper over factory .243 cases. Doesn't make any sense to me, but that's what i found.
 
My ideas have changed some since asking my questions, that's a good thing!
Currently my thought is to get a Redding Competition Seating die, A Redding Competition Bushing neck sizing die and a Redding Body (bump) die. The other Redding Dies I have do a really good job. I use a Forester Micrometer seating die for my 30-06 I used in High Power competition for years. Love teh control, and repeatability, it gives. If there's a better bump die out there I'm all ears. I will be using screw in dies for the foreseeable future so that is a limitation.

How do I turn them right? Years ago I got a neck turning setup to go on my Forester case length trimming setup. Never used it but it will work on the 6mm. Is it good enough to do the job 'right?' Or, do I need a hand type?

I have 200 R-P cases. I'll wash them then separate by weight. +- 2gr close enough? Should the spread be less or greater?

Yes, the R#1 has it's own issues to work through in looking for accuracy. I will dismount the forearm and shoot it with the receiver on the front rest. That will remove any interactions from the forearm from the equation.

Gregg
 
SGJennings said:
Some random thoughts from left field:

1. If you shoot an unsatisfactory group with the #1, how do you know that it's the rifle, the load, etc. rather than something else? A given group is produced by the total "system", not just the rifle or load.

2. Are you confident in your measuring tools and your use of them? If you can't trust your measurements, you don't have a place to start. For example, if you want to measure the shoulder bump of your dies, do you have the right equipment?

3. What is the twist rate of your barrel? Have you confirmed that? I've seen #1's that had oddball twist rates.

4. What kind of optics do you have on the #1? You can't shoot better than you can see.

5. Do you use wind flags when you test?
Click to expand...


1. Basics, is the group round. Is it strung vertically or horizontally, did I call the fliers, did it feel right on let off or not is the group consistent with other groups fired with that load.
2. I have confidence in the tools I currently have. They are basic. Micrometer and caliper. Stoney Point cartridge length set up.
3. Ruger says it's 1-12. I have not verified it and don't know how.
4. The scope is a Veber 6X24 by 50. Seems bright and clear when I look through it even at 24. Better than many scopes I have used. Has fine cross hairs in the center with a fine dot in the middle.
5. I never have before. Just used the feel of the breeze on my face, mirage and what the grass was doing. For this I plan to start though. Some stakes with tape on them for a start.

Gregg
 
Gregg, You've got a good start. You can use "snow poles" or similar with surveyor's tape as a stand in for wind flags. Not ideal, but far better than nothing.

I killed a truck load of groundhogs with a M-700 Varmint in 6 Remingtonnwhen I was in high school and college. My go to load was 42.5 gr of 4350 behind the Seirra 85 gr hpbt.

Greg J
 
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