New To Case Neck Preparation

Biggest thing is..... please share your findings. You're getting more than the usual disagreement here.

Meantime, I stand by my assertions, no change.

We'll see if Lou gives you any real information about how to get a "bump" die that fits your chamber ;) ..... and you can test the neck turning thing over time. Although it takes an accurate rifle to test this. I did it using an accurate .270nk 6MM round and turning necks clear down to .260 in increments. Another fun thing is to fire rounds into a fresh dry snowbank and recover them in the spring. You can see the land marks on the bullets.

Enjoy the journey and keep us posted, Wilburs forum only works as well as we do.

al

BTW, the term "bump" die denotes a die cut with your chambering reamer. It's for "bumping" the shoulder. There are still a few gunsmith's out there who'll make you one. A Redding body die is in no way related to a "bump" die. It's simply a full length sizer with the neck left out. That's why it's called a Body Die.

Lou can disagree/explain if he so chooses.


edit, oooops, doubled up without knowing Lou posted. I'll leave it alone.
 
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Lou Murdica said:
What I'm saying is you never can say that neck turning won't help. How much improvement nobody can say.
I have tested many cartridges in many rifles to see what it will do. A lot comes down to brass quality and neck tension along with many other factors. If you knock off .050 by neck turning and do that with 10 other things ( gun cleaning, seating depth, etc., it will show in the group size.
So do everything, do it every time and encourage other shooters to do it all as well. it pays off and It's how we learn and enjoy what we do.



Redding Competition
Type S
Bushing Neck Die
71115


RCBS / HUNTINGTON
GROUP 1 NECK DIES

11502 6mm Remington
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So which of these is the "bump" die Lou

al
 
Ed Willers said:
I will be using once fired brass that was fired in someone else's rifle.
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NOT THE THING TO DO! Goes against the basic fundamentals of reloading. Start with new brass and fire form it in YOUR rifle's chamber.
 
abintx said:
NOT THE THING TO DO! Goes against the basic fundamentals of reloading. Start with new brass and fire form it in YOUR rifle's chamber.
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I can understand this, but once it's been fired in my chamber once won't it be formed to my chamber? And, give me a good start to finding the correct set up to the rifle?

Al, I'll quit calling it a bump die. I wasn't aware there is a difference.

I also think I'll do my basic load work up with out doing any turning. Once I've narrowed it down to a couple loads then I'll see if it makes a difference. Won't be able to tell if it matters if I'm getting a 6" group with the load.
 
Ed,

cartridge brass (and many other metals) will "work harden" when you move, hammer, stretch, spindle or otherwise mutilate it. Once it's hardened it gets "springier" and doesn't as readily assume a new shape. Fresh cartridge brass is highly malleable, hammered brass isn't.

In fact, brass is SO malleable that cartridge cases are formed from a 'button' or slug of brass often referred to as the 'blank.' The brass is hammered until it hardens, annealed, hammered again, repeat until the case is formed to the desired dimensions. Here are some pix http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2007/06/how-cartridge-brass-is-made/

Once the cases are hammered out, turned, necked, trimmed and punched or drilled it's then finally heat treated. This heat treatment is absolutely critical, something you do NOT want to attempt on your own except for the neck/shoulder portion only..... once cases have been heat treated at the factory you get ONE, maybe two chances to hammer it into the shape of your specific chamber.

The problem with fired brass is that it's work-hardened to a specific shape in someone else's chamber. It's well nigh impossible to re-make it to fit your chamber well unless you luck into cases that were fired in a chamber very similar to yours.

Chambers vary wildly.

Work hardened brass resists being moved more than a thou or two.

IMO "penny wise and pound foolish" is your watchword here. Use new brass. :)

That said, it's not really a safety issue it's just that IME you need to keep your variables down to as few as possible.

I've played with several #1's and #3's with the "best" one being a really minty 1986 #1 chambered in 6PPC USA, an experimental chambering back in the day. They're hard. They're a challenge. If I were to offer any ideas that could help you in your quest for accuracy I'll suggest you use a wicked soft front bag. And/or remove the forearm as you've suggested. I'll suggest the Uncle Buds Bull's Bag type front rest with this caveat...... the new "X System" is wretched I bought the X-7 Pro-Advanced S System and abhor it. Just get the traditional long bag. And it'll still leak all over yourself. A better but more pricey option is the Dog Gone Good system http://dog-gone-good.com/

You're in for a fun ride, welcome aboard

al

link to UBBB http://www.bullsbag.com/Default.asp
 
Ed/Gregg,

Look what a great thread you've provoked! Here's my take on your quest.

1) The chamber of YOUR rifle is the final form die for YOUR brass, not the resize die.
2) There is much variation between production chambers and they are all roomy.
3) A production die will almost always overwork (mangle) brass shot in a roomy production chamber.
4) A bushing type FL die can be set up to mangle your brass shot in your production chamber, less than a conventional, fixed neck size expander ball type die.
5) A custom full length die to really fit any specific chamber is expensive.
6) A production rifle is seldom refined enough to reveal incremental improvements in ammunition.
7) A barrel is a consumable item.
8) A die is forever.
9) Good brass is not always easy to find and is really the starting point for all of this.


So, the conclusions I've come to are as follows.

1) First, get good brass. Get a lot of it.
2) Buy a full length production (cheap) die of your choice, maybe even a conventional type without interchangeable neck bushings.
3) Specify YOUR chamber reamer to optimize for YOUR FL die.
4) Turn your case necks to give you the neck clearance and tension you want.
4) Build your new rifle around an action, stock, trigger and barrel that won't conceal your progress as an ammunition builder/shooter in experimental noise. Do this even though a Ruger Number One is a very lovely thing.

Now I know you aren't going to do all this, yet. So here's what you do for now.

1) Sort your brass for minimum case neck wall thickness variation. Throw away the worst cases. You'll know where to stop.
2) Neck turn only enough to knock off the high spots off your sorted brass. 25% cut is probably about right.
3) Buy a Lee Deluxe die set with FL and collet neck dies.
4) Use the collet neck die only, until you can start feeling the cases chamber, then FL size once and start over with the collet die.
5) Shoot groups with ammo that has the same number firings on every case. Don't reload any cases until that ammo box has empty cases only.

It is my opinion that in a big fat mass produced production chamber the very best you can do is to build your ammo with the Lee collet die. All of the refined techniques described in the rest of the thread are predicated on a "good" fit between brass, chamber and die. You can't have that with a roomy mass produced production chamber.

I've enjoyed much more than my fair share of success in 1K factory class bench rest with a long in tooth, bone stock 7 Mag Rem Sendero and a very ragged Swede 96. I think the biggest single contribution to accuracy out of those very roomy chambers has been Lee collet neck dies. Did I mention that they are really cheap?


Let the flaming begin.

Greg
 
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Al is right, as usual. There is no such thing as a factory shoulder bump die. Some may come close, but the only true bump die is one that is made with the chamber reamer. The die blanks made by Jim Carstenson and completed by the barrel butcher are true shouder bump dies. Each time I make a new barrel I also make my own die from a scrap of barrel using the reamer. Some I make with a neck bushing, some not.

One problem that you may encounter with the body dies is that they are sometimes too generous in some dimensions and you may find that using them to bump a shoulder will result in the brass being displaced to the case body. A case that will enter the chamber before bumping may be sticky afterwards. It takes a little head-scratching to figure out exactly what the hell happened but you can be almost positive that its the result of using a factory body die. This usually happens when you have a very tight chamber, which most of mine are.

JMHO

Ray
 
Here I thought I'd asked a rather simple question. <VBG>
I think I'm going to have lots of fun working this out and finding out what shoots well in this rifle and how it shoots well. One thing for sure is I will learn a lot and that will be useful when I have a custom rifle built.

With the Collet Die. Does Lee sell different size mandrels for them so the neck tightness can be adjusted?
Thanks everyone for all your information!! I always knew shooters were the best & most helpful guys around.
 
Ed Willers said:
Here I thought I'd asked a rather simple question. <VBG>
I think I'm going to have lots of fun working this out and finding out what shoots well in this rifle and how it shoots well. One thing for sure is I will learn a lot and that will be useful when I have a custom rifle built.

With the Collet Die. Does Lee sell different size mandrels for them so the neck tightness can be adjusted?
Thanks everyone for all your information!! I always knew shooters were the best & most helpful guys around.
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Yes Ed,

Lee sells mandrels of alternate sizes to their customers. I recall they are available directly from Lee for $6. Also, you can hone one down in a few minutes to any size you want with a universal Ho Chi Minh hand lathe ( 3/8" drill) and abrasive device of your choice.

Greg
 
There is a finite amount of neck tension to be had, regardless of how small you make the mandrel. After a point, the bullet becomes an expander ball and permanently opens the case neck anyway. So yes, seating pressure still increases, but neck tension does not. In fact, it may be less when the neck is smaller. But people only check "neck tension" when pushing the bullets in, not pulling them out.

I find that past about .004 of neck interference, all you're doing is overworking the brass. On the subject of which, I'd like to add one of my reasonings for neck turning even in loose chambered factory rifles. When the brass is not neck turned, the thickness varies a lot. After doing a clean up cut, it is consistent. All you need to do is knock off most of the high spots, they don't even need to be turned to a full contact. With thick and thin spots (before turning) the brass works mostly at the thin spots. Both during sizing and firing. This makes them crack prematurely at those overworked areas. Once they are uniformed, they last a lot longer because all of the brass moves, just not so much.
 
Case Neck Preparation

I don't usually reply to posts because I don't usually have anything to add that would amount to much.

However in the past 40 or so years I have noticed a few things. In MOST of the FACTORY HUNTING rifles I've shot, there was no gain by neck turning and other "benchrest techniques". If brass is so bad it needs fixing, throw it away and start with fresh brass. WW or RP is usually just fine for the factory rifle (Remington, Winchester, Ruger, Savage). The gain with premium brass is small at best. Only you can establish if the expense is justified.

The one "new" tool already mentioned is the Lee Collet neck sizer. It doesn't get much press because it is cheap and we can't brag about using cheap tools. I have had just as good luck loading for factory rifles with it and a good bullet seater as with anything, and I have custom neck sizers, seaters and other goodies out the ears so I have experimented a bit.

A factory rifle is only going to shoot just so. It will never be a benchrest rifle, occasionally it will be a starter target rifle for local shoots and usually it is more than sufficient for its intened purpose - hunting.

Anyway, have fun, watch and learn. It is a fascinating hobby.

Jim

"We all have our delusions of grandeur"
 
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