New target Paper

G

Gerry

Guest
i don't know if this has been talked about before.
The current target paper is really touchy to measure. It flakes off around the edges as it is handled . Would a new firmer paper be in order?
I know it would effect the current standings But maybe we should at least talk about it. i bet the groups would be a lot easier to measure.
The only problem is considering the change. What's you opinion on this?
People that measure the groups know the problems.
 
Son of A Gun

Gerry said:
i don't know if this has been talked about before.
The current target paper is really touchy to measure. It flakes off around the edges as it is handled . Would a new firmer paper be in order?
I know it would effect the current standings But maybe we should at least talk about it. i bet the groups would be a lot easier to measure.
The only problem is considering the change. What's you opinion on this?
People that measure the groups know the problems.
Click to expand...

Has a partner!
 
Gerry

In fact, way back when the Sanctioning Bodies looked at the current paper, it was chosen because of the very plain and easy to see holes that bullets left in it, without tearing. I fail to see what you are talking about when you say it "flakes off around the edges".
I have shot through a lot of paper types, and the stuff we use is pretty good.
Without sounding like a "dinosaur", and being seen as contrary to change, let me say that I see nothing wrong with the target paper we use now.
But if something better comes along, who cares one way or another. We all have to shoot through the same stuff. Just as long as the bullets leave round holes that you can surround with a reticle to get an accurate, and consistant, measurement........jackie
 
I measure a few thousand targets a year and I've not noticed the problems you describe. They did change paper a few years back due to a discontinuance of the existing target paper in use but they still measure easily.

One thing you must consider in choosing a target material is ease of handling while running a match. As in almost every situation in life there are trade-offs that must be factored in. I doubt that you'll see a better all around solution any time in the forseeable future for targets. The present situation works just fine and any 'improvement' that is practical only exists in some imaginations at this time but who knows what the future holds???? Imaginations are responsible for everything we use today.
 
new target paper

humidity has a definite effect on the official paper we are using today.
Then there is the almighty rain factor. What about a light coating on the paper to repel water. The official paper we are using now is junk.
very close to Lightly pressed pulp. If you examine it under a low power magnifying glass you will see holes and what paper makers call worms,
also thin and thick spots.
 
One question

Probably one of the factors when picking paper is how much will the target ends up costing.....would it be economical to use a paper that would make a finished target cost $1 ea?

Cost wouldn't be the only criteria for targets, colour, availability, and suitability would be others..........Ian
 
Target Paper

Jackie & Mickey...
What's missing here is that Gerry is talking about IBS targets, and I suspect that you guys are talking about your experience with NBRSA targets...

Gerry...
Yes, the IBS is aware that we have paper problems and is pursuing a course of action that will hopefully result in a better source of target paper in time for next year’s shooting season…
 
Last edited:
Jackie...

...no problem at all...just wanted to make certain that everyone was on the same page...
Gerry runs the IBS matches in Camillus, N.Y...
 
Something's missing here...

I've been scoring targets for a very long time. I submit that more ragged holes are made by out-of-tune guns than anything else. We use IBS targets and don't have scoring problems with guns that are "Throwing spirals". If a bullet is wobbling on the way to the target, the edges of the hole get pretty ragged.

Dick
 
I think what we need are precision targets.
How about something like , oh I don't know, .... Formica???
NOT TED
 
Go to the paper experts ...

According to the 2007 PricewaterhouseCoopers Global Forest & Paper Industry Survey, the top 10 forest, paper & packaging products companies were:

Rank Company Country 2006 Net Sales(US$M), 2006 Net Income (Loss)(US$M)
1 International Paper United States 21,995 1,050
2 Weyerhaeuser United States 18,561 142
3 Stora Enso Finland and Sweden 18,330 740
4 Kimberly-Clark United States 16,746 1,500
5 SCA Sweden 13,796 739
6 UPM Finland 12,588 427
7 Procter & Gamble (Paper) United States 11,972 1,299
8 Metsäliitto Finland 11,644 (325)
9 Oji Paper Japan 10,439 181
10 Nippon Unipac Japan 9,908 148

Has anyone contacted International Paper, Weyerhaeuser or Kimberly-Clark to see what kind of solution they could bring to this problem ??? I would bet they could find a solution within their current inventory of products. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Art
 
Kent, please check your PMs . . .

Kent Harshman said:
Jackie & Mickey...
What's missing here is that Gerry is talking about IBS targets, and I suspect that you guys are talking about your experience with NBRSA targets...

Gerry...
Yes, the IBS is aware that we have paper problems and is pursuing a course of action that will hopefully result in a better source of target paper in time for next year’s shooting season…
Click to expand...

I sent you some [paper] info. RG
 
Randy...

Thanks a bunch for the info, and I will DEFINITELY take you up on the "P.M." offer of a couple of samples...
110 Woodridge Drive
Palmyra, Pa. 17078
 
Rain

I have only seen a problem with the current paper in the rain. This was mentioned before and it is true. I have only shot 1 registered match this year, but it did rain. I had shot a group with the 30-30 that I was sure was a high .1" group. It was measured .206". I challenged it with the usuall $5. The target came back along with my money, and a new measurement of .177". The guys said the wet paper made it hard to measure, but the new measurement was the average of three guys results. If this problem surfaced from only one match, it must be a fairly common issue.

Michael
 
Wet targets

Usually the problem with measuring wet targets has nothing to do with the paper. The black ring left by the bullet, gets washed off, leaving only a ragged hole with no defined "edge". It really becomes a "best guess" scenario as to the group size. But, I would venture to say that i can measure a wet target within .010-.015 of what it would be dry. (and it usually will measure a little on the small side. when wet). Of course I have seen some that came to the scoring shed that were so wet, that after being handled by the target crew they looked like they had been chewed by a dog. After peeling them apart carefully trying not to tear them any worse, it makes you feel like your working in the lab on CSI.

After having measured probably more than 10k targets, I would say the most common errors are -
#1 not closing the calipers all the way before starting.
#2 using the wrong size reticle for the caliber used.
#3 and confusion. (measuring say a .234 but writing on the target .324)

In the instance above - I bet problem #2. Also - it should have been remeasured by the scorer, not the refs - unless that remeasure was also questioned.
 
Silicon added to the paper...

If the paper mill were to ad silicon to the pulp it would make the paper water resistant and smoother...I am not sure how the bullet would cut the paper...It would be interesting to collect paper samples from a paper vendor and shoot some groups to see which gave the cleanest hole...sadly I do not live in a region that paper companies have a sales offices, or I would do some informal research..:(
 
Measurement Challenges

The guys said the wet paper made it hard to measure, but the new measurement was the average of "three guys" results.

Michael

Is it a requirement that challenged targets at the national and
regional level be measured by three refs?

If not can we request it? What does the rule book say?
 
Last edited:
The problem with silicone, either on or, "in" the paper . . .

eww1350 said:
If the paper mill were to ad silicon to the pulp it would make the paper water resistant and smoother...I am not sure how the bullet would cut the paper...It would be interesting to collect paper samples from a paper vendor and shoot some groups to see which gave the cleanest hole...sadly I do not live in a region that paper companies have a sales offices, or I would do some informal research..:(
Click to expand...

Unless "things" have dramatically changed in the priniting industry since my demise as an offset printing-press operator, ink won't adhere to it (silicone) :eek::D! RG
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top