New benchrest rookie. Used rifle bought, questions

S

Stormbringer

Guest
Howdy folks. I have always wanted to get into 100-200 yard benchrest shooting and could not pass on a rifle to get my feet wet.

I just bought a Kelby's Stolle Panda RBLP. The rifle came with two barrels one light varmint 6mmPPC .262 neck Shilen 13.5 " twist 22" long and one heavy varmint 6mmPPC .262 neck Krieger 14" twist 22" long. Both barrels are low round count. Brand new in the package Kelby 1" rings came with the rifle and a McMillian Hunter stock with a Jewel 2oz trigger. Action and rings are bright polished.

Other items included were a Wilson seater die, 100 Laupa 220 Russian brass neck turned, sized and ready for primers, action clamp, two redding bushings and some bullets.

Rifle is in great shape and I have robbed a Nikon 6.5-20 Monarch scope from another rifle and mounted it in the Kelby rings until a Weaver T-36 is purchased. The rifle weighs 10.75 lbs with the light varmint barrel.

I got quite a bargin at 1200.00.

Questions that I would like to ask you guys.

I need some dies for my RCBS press. I have had great luck with Forster and Redding for my varmint rifles. Should I go that way or get an arbor press and get additional Wilsons?

H322 seems to be a good starting point in powder and I have some of that on hand. Other powders you would recommend?

I have a good assortment of bullets to try in the 55-70 grain range.

I have shot some great groups with my varmint rifles but I am a bag pincher and have a fairly tight cheek weld. Will this technique work or should I develope a free recoil?

Don't have an wind flags and would recommend advise to where to purchase some?

Any other thoughts you guys can shoot my way I sure appreciate.

I really like the Panda and that Jewel is Sweet!
 

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You really did get a bargain. Are the cops looking for it? ;)

If your rifle weighs 10.75 lbs you're going to have to shed 1/4 pound. Changing scopes may do it.

There are several who frequent this forum who make good wind flags. I made my own for years and finally realized that I can buy good flags cheaper than I can make them. I settled on Rick Graham's and am well pleased with them. David Halblom also makes good flags.

N133 (Vhitavouri) is the powder most used in the PPC these days. You might try that in steps from 29-30 grains. I have two rifles that shot 29.9 well the last time out. Next time out they may prefer a different load. Therein lies the challenge of benchrest.

I'd say more but it's 3:00 am and I'm going back to bed.

PS: Redding small base f/l die w/bushing
 
Welcome to the club our new found benchrest friend!!!! You have entered a crazy and gonzo world and there is more than a few opinions that you are prolly gonna get on this forum. :D If you get a chance, go to a benchrest match just as an observer. It will help give you a feel for everything and most of this bunch is more than happy to help fresh meat... I mean, a new benchrest shooter out with as many questions as you could ever have. :DBTW: Kudos on the rifle. Very attractive and for a good price it would seem. Now, on to your questions.

I believe your first question is on dies!!!! You can use neck dies and only full length size when needed or you can full length size everytime. A Redding Type S small base die is what I would recommend. It sizes enough that your brass should fit about any chamber. A Harrell vari-base die is also an interesting tool. The best thing to do is to get a die that matches your chamber, but since you probably don't have a reamer yet that is/will be consistently used for all of your future chambers, than that idea is just something you'll wanna keep in mind. (It will save you much hassle in the future)

Question #2: H322 is a good powder. After trying V133 I've almost not touched H322 since. That's not to say that it won't win, or shoot well, but I think that THE MAJORITY (I know there are plently out there who cant stand 133) will agree that V133 is the most consistent powder for the PPC that we have available today. Other powders you may wanna try include Hodgdon Benchmark and Reloader 10x. Both have been used with limited success.

Your 3rd point was a statement on bulets rather than a question, but I'll throw my advice out there anyway. Benchrest bullets should not be confused with varmint bullets. The vast majority of todays match bullets are made strictly with J4 jackets, and are nearly all handmade. There are PLENTY of good benchrest bullets out there. The best thing to do is to find an equipment list in either Precision Shooting or the NBRSA News and see what is doin' the winning!!!! Different parts of the country often have different bullet makers who are having good success so you'll see varying results. I believe that Del Bishop would be a fine choice in bullets, and I believe that he lives somewhere out west. lol. Sorry that I'm not 100% sure of his location, all I know is he makes good bullets and I see him a lot in the equiment lists from matches out west.

4th question: I personally recommend developing free recoil, as it is the easiest shooting technique to duplicate easily. And with shooting technique, of course, consistency would be the key. If you feel that you can use a strong cheek weld the same for every shot, go for it. But whatever method you use, it should be the exact same from shot to shot, and should be (or at least developed to be) 2nd nature. My own style is basically free recoil. My cheek is not touching the rifle, my shoulder does barely graze the stock, and my trigger finger is the only other part of my body even touching the gun. And I find nothing wrong with bag squeezing, even on a RBLP rifle. Just be sure to follow through, and keep your bag-hand steady throughout recoil.

As far as wind flags go, buy the best flag stands that you can buy the first time. Smiley Hensley's flags and flag stands are great. I personally don't like the tripod style flag stand, but I guess it all depends on where ya shoot. The kind you stick in the ground will work anywhere.

The only other advice that I'm going to give is to get a copy of the "The Ultimate in Rifle Accuracy" by Glenn Newick or "The Benchrest Shooting Primer" published by Precision Shooting. Both books will offer simple instruction on the basics of the game. The equipment in both books will be far out-dated but the fundamentals of this game have not changed and both of these books will layout the fundamentals very well. Mike Ratigan has also recently come out with a VERY thorough book on benchrest shooting. It has a ton of information in it. Mike's book of course is superb and should be a welcome addition to any shooter's library. Plus Mike's book will have updated equipment information.

Welcome to benchrest shooting!!!!!! Have fun with every shot, take your time, and may all your shots go into a teeny-tiny bughole!!!!!

Matthew S Keller
mk6ppc@yahoo (Just in case I can ever be of help)
 
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Stormbringer said:
I got quite a bargain at 1200.00.

Questions that I would like to ask you guys.

I need some dies for my RCBS press. I have had great luck with Forster and Redding for my varmint rifles. Should I go that way or get an arbor press and get additional Wilsons?

H322 seems to be a good starting point in powder and I have some of that on hand. Other powders you would recommend?

I have a good assortment of bullets to try in the 55-70 grain range.

I have shot some great groups with my varmint rifles but I am a bag pincher and have a fairly tight cheek weld. Will this technique work or should I develop a free recoil?

Don't have an wind flags and would recommend advise to where to purchase some?

Any other thoughts you guys can shoot my way I sure appreciate.

I really like the Panda and that Jewel is Sweet!
Click to expand...
If you want to shoot competition, the first thing is to determine which game. As you may know, in the 100/200 area there is score and group. What you have bought is a gun built to shoot HBR (Hunter Benchrest) which is a score game. A point here, find out what shooting game is available in your local area or within a reasonable distance.

So, don't let the fact you have a benchrest gun with a HBR stock be the final decision. The HBR stock forend is narrower that the traditional 3" wide benchrest stocks. The good thing is with the HBR stock you can shoot both the rules that allow 3" wide forends as well as the narrower HBR.

This brings up the next nasty subject, you need a front rest and rear bag. You can buy a front rest for a 3" stock and just change the bag to fit your stock. You'll accumulate all this stuff with time if you keep interested in benchrest competition.

Matthew Keller, above, has given you some very good advise. Matthew is one of the top shooters in the Southeast Region of the NBRSA and he works at Wideners Reloading ( www.wideners.com ) . What he says about using the proper bullets is very important for maximum accuracy.

One thing though, on his comment about using H322 vs. VV133. VV133 is the current favorite in the 6PPC, but Matthew and the rest of us in the SE Region get our butts kicked by Dennis Brame who shoots H322. VV133 has to be shot at maximum pressure to really shine. Don't try that with H322. You can take H322 and shoot it at about 3150-3250 fps and it does great and is not as temperamental as VV133.

Welcome to the sport. You'll love it.
 
The heck with experimenting. Ask the prior owner what bullet and powder he used and go with that.

Send 3 fired cases to Harrell's Precision and have them send you a sizing die.
 
crb said:
The heck with experimenting. Ask the prior owner what bullet and powder he used and go with that.

Send 3 fired cases to Harrell's Precision and have them send you a sizing die.
Click to expand...
CRB, good advise but as to seeing what the previous owner's load data was is not a bad place to start. But, what if that person didn't have the gun shooting to its maximum capability. This guy needs a starting place for sure but he will need to learn how to tune also.

His comment about both barrels having a low round count, the previous owner may have sold the gun, not for the fact that it will not shoot, but possibly because he didn't get it to shoot.

You are spot-on about the Harrell dies. If he sends them some fired brass he will be much better off, IMO, that just getting an off-the-shelf 6PPC die.
 
Thanks for the advise guys

I will try to get the rifle to the range as soon as I get some dies and begin to work up some loads.

I do have four or five different types of various 60 grain weight benchrest bullets from Berger, Starke, Sierra and two custom makers.

I will buy a couple of pounds of N133 to try along with the H322 and Benchmark I already have on hand.

I did think the gun was put together for Hunter Class. I will have to look over the rules to see where I will try to make my start.

I have never shot for score before but I have shot dozens of 5 shot groups that go into the sub .25" range and a few screamers that went into the .1 and two that were sub .1". (got lucky a few times). These groups were shot with Savages and Remingtons that are either stock or with full accuracy treatments and custom barrels. I do know how to load for tight necks and shoot some rifles that require this including a 20BR on a Savage action.

I will definately have to purchase an upgraded front rest and better rear bag.

Does anybody know if we have any Benchrest Matches held in the Salt Lake City area? I would think the Lee Kay Center may have one or two each year. I will definately plan to go to the next sponsored event in or around Utah. I live just outside SLC.

Mike.
 
There are 2 ranges that I know of in Utah that will hold 100 and 200 yard competitions. Central Utah and Logan Rifle and Pistol club. Logan Rifle and Pistol Club hasn't put their schedule out yet. Lou Murdica is the Southwest region NBRSA director. You may want to shoot him an email regarding the Southwest region schedule. Here's also a link to the southwest regions website. they'll update it with match results and schedules. Hope this helps!!!!

http://nbrsa.org/Southwest-Region

2009 Central Utah 100 and 200 Yard benchrest schedule
UTAH STATE CHAMPIONSHIP

MAY 2 2009 SPORTER 100 YARD

MAY 2 2009 10 SHOT UNLIMITED 100 YARD

MAY 3 2009 10 SHOT UNLIMITED 200 YARD

MAY 3 2009 SPORTER 200 YARD



UTAH STATE CHAMPIONSHIP

AUG. 1 2009 LIGHT VARMINT

AUG. 1 2009 HEAVY VARMINT

AUG. 2 2009 HEAVY VARMINT

AUG. 2 2009 LIGHT VARMINT



DUE TO THE RANGE SIZE PRE REGISTRATION IS

STRONGLY SUGGESTED



START TIMES 8:30 AM
 
Thanks again

Very good to see we do have some activity here in Utah. Logan is only an hour away.

Now the big learning curve has to start.

Mike.
 
Welcome to the club! Don't waste any time getting to the first match you can attend. You will never get prepared completely on your own, so just get the thing shooting ok and go to a match. That will save you days of developing things that you'll change after your first match.
HAVE FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ASK QUESTIONS!!!!!
 
Stormbringer ...

Shed the scope's Sun Shade. That should get rid of some weight. I don't know anyone in Benchrest (That's Benchrest with a capital "B") that uses one. Hot air can get trapped in there and initiate mirage at the rifle. Not good.
 
to Rookie Stormbringer

Hi , welcome to the club ,from France ; being a relative newcomer to the sport myself i have a couple of advices that worked for me :
at your local BR range , try to finder a mentor /shooting partner that has been doing this for years and very important shoots the competitions regularly , ideally a man of national envergure who shot the Supershoot .

Main use of the guy is prevent you from losing your time buying cheap stuff that will get you nowhere .Dies have to be from Harrel of Neil Jones .This sport has had some evolutions , there is a state of the art level , why would anyone start from way back then and re-invent the wheel ?

One of the most useful purchase is Mike Rattigans book ( there are others , like the Newick but Mike's is the latest ) my copy has been read and re-read many times , and there's a lot of priceless advices in there .

See you someday in Ohio .
Pascal
 
Stormbringer said:
Howdy folks. I have always wanted to get into 100-200 yard benchrest shooting and could not pass on a rifle to get my feet wet.

I just bought a Kelby's Stolle Panda RBLP. The rifle came with two barrels one light varmint 6mmPPC .262 neck Shilen 13.5 " twist 22" long and one heavy varmint 6mmPPC .262 neck Krieger 14" twist 22" long. Both barrels are low round count. Brand new in the package Kelby 1" rings came with the rifle and a McMillian Hunter stock with a Jewel 2oz trigger. Action and rings are bright polished.

Other items included were a Wilson seater die, 100 Laupa 220 Russian brass neck turned, sized and ready for primers, action clamp, two redding bushings and some bullets.

Rifle is in great shape and I have robbed a Nikon 6.5-20 Monarch scope from another rifle and mounted it in the Kelby rings until a Weaver T-36 is purchased. The rifle weighs 10.75 lbs with the light varmint barrel.

I got quite a bargin at 1200.00.

Questions that I would like to ask you guys.

I need some dies for my RCBS press. I have had great luck with Forster and Redding for my varmint rifles. Should I go that way or get an arbor press and get additional Wilsons?

H322 seems to be a good starting point in powder and I have some of that on hand. Other powders you would recommend?

I have a good assortment of bullets to try in the 55-70 grain range.

I have shot some great groups with my varmint rifles but I am a bag pincher and have a fairly tight cheek weld. Will this technique work or should I develope a free recoil?

Don't have an wind flags and would recommend advise to where to purchase some?

Any other thoughts you guys can shoot my way I sure appreciate.

I really like the Panda and that Jewel is Sweet!
Click to expand...





Welcome Mike!
You will be in good company where you live. Lots of BR guys around this neck of the woods. You'll want to get a hold of Dave Tunbridge to register for the Central Utah championships (don't know why they call it the championships 'cause it's just another regular, local shoot so don't let it scare you into thinking you aren't good enough to shoot it) in May. This match is held at the mouth of Hobble Creek Canyon just east of the Springville/Mapleton junction. If you need Dave's number, let me know.

The Logan match is a little less formal and you can just register at the range when you arrive. The first match there will probably be in June although the schedule hasn't been put out yet.

The next closest match for us Utah boys is in Grand Junction, Colorado. It's put on by Dan Dowling and Tom Stiner. They will have their schedule out soon too but last I heard was a match was planned for May.

For Utah and surrounding area, most matches if not all are Group. Score matches just aren't as popular but it sounds like you'll be better equipped for Group anyway.

Bruce Black is an excellent guy and always willing to help but he lives in Koosharem so you might want to find someone else to go to the range and practice with. Quite a few of the SLC guys practice at the Lee Kay Center but no matches are held there. They will not let you set up chronographs or wind flags there so it is basically useless in my opinion. It's also a very "squirrely" place to try and find a tune for your rifle because of the way the range is setup.

I'm in Utah county and practice quite often but I don't know if coming all the way down here to practice is practical for you.

Anyway, hope this helps and again, welcome to benchrest.
 
What a gracious offer

Lou Murdica said:
Stormbringer send in you NBRSA application to

Pat Ferrell, NBRSA Business Manager
2835 Guilford Lane, Oklahoma City, OK 73120-4404

and join and I will send you a Harrell's Precision die for free.
go to the NBRSA web site
just email me you address to lou@murdica.com
I won't be home tell after middle of February.

Also you have a great group of benchrest shooter up in you area
and in Saint George.
Is you action glued in or bolted in. I mite even surprise you with a used 3" stock that I've take off from one of my guns. I have to look.
I love to see new shooter get started.

Lou
Click to expand...

Lou, my action is not glued in. The bottom and sides of the action are roughed up so at one time I am sure it was glued in.

I will send in my application. I did not know which organization to join but I will join the NBRSA.

I will email you my address.

Mike.
 
Goodgrouper

goodgrouper said:
Welcome Mike!
You will be in good company where you live. Lots of BR guys around this neck of the woods. You'll want to get a hold of Dave Tunbridge to register for the Central Utah championships (don't know why they call it the championships 'cause it's just another regular, local shoot so don't let it scare you into thinking you aren't good enough to shoot it) in May. This match is held at the mouth of Hobble Creek Canyon just east of the Springville/Mapleton junction. If you need Dave's number, let me know.

The Logan match is a little less formal and you can just register at the range when you arrive. The first match there will probably be in June although the schedule hasn't been put out yet.

The next closest match for us Utah boys is in Grand Junction, Colorado. It's put on by Dan Dowling and Tom Stiner. They will have their schedule out soon too but last I heard was a match was planned for May.

For Utah and surrounding area, most matches if not all are Group. Score matches just aren't as popular but it sounds like you'll be better equipped for Group anyway.

Bruce Black is an excellent guy and always willing to help but he lives in Koosharem so you might want to find someone else to go to the range and practice with. Quite a few of the SLC guys practice at the Lee Kay Center but no matches are held there. They will not let you set up chronographs or wind flags there so it is basically useless in my opinion. It's also a very "squirrely" place to try and find a tune for your rifle because of the way the range is setup.

I'm in Utah county and practice quite often but I don't know if coming all the way down here to practice is practical for you.

Anyway, hope this helps and again, welcome to benchrest.
Click to expand...


If you would not mind some company, give me a shout on your next trip to the range. I would love to pick your brain and gain some much needed pointers. I would bring my equipment and let you look it over.

I work full time but I do have some flex time and could come down south during the week.

Mike.

(801) 661-0819.
 
Stormbringer said:
If you would not mind some company, give me a shout on your next trip to the range. I would love to pick your brain and gain some much needed pointers. I would bring my equipment and let you look it over.

I work full time but I do have some flex time and could come down south during the week.

Mike.

(801) 661-0819.
Click to expand...



Sounds good. Hobble Creek is where I go most of the time and it should be unburied by late Feb or early March depending on the weather. Right now, there is probably a 6 foot snowdrift in the road!

Keep in touch. If you need to find me, send me a PM or call Jerrel at his number above.
 
First Range Trip

I was chomping at the bit and had to get the new Panda to the range. I loaded up some ammo and headed to the Lee Kay Center.

The temperature was 41 degrees and the winds were 6-12 mph coming from 6-8 oclock.

I did not play with seating depth although all bullets were very far from the lands.

55 grain Blitzkings

27 grains AA2015, BR4, 2.110 OAL = .477
29 grains N133, BR4, 2.110 OAL = .438
29 grains N133, 7.5, 2.110 OAL = .450 ( 1 flyer )

65 Vmax

28 N133, 7.5, 2.122 = .337
28 BenMark, BR4, 2.115 = .148

66.7 Precisoin Ballistics FBOT 26 grains N133, 7.5, 2.165 OAL = .241
66.7 Precision Ballistics BTOT 26 grains N133, 7.5, 2.172 OAL = .087

I am no benchrest shooter and the rifle was held not free-recoiled. Some of you guys would have likely called my technique a death lock. LOL

The one flyer was from the light Jewel. I am already becoming accustomed to the lightness of the setting.

Now my custom Savages, Remingtons, Rugers, etc seem like rattle traps!

Lee Kay has a few wind flags/streamers but I did not pay any attention to them since I do not understand how to utilize them.

I can tell the Weaver T-36 I am going to buy will help a great deal with my shooting. I simply held the Nikon set at 20 power in the same location during each 3 shot group. I did not load up enough ammo for 5 shot groups but my next range trip will be with 5 shot groups. H322 and Berger, Sierra and more of the Precision Ballistic bullets will be worked up for the next range trip.

I only used the 55 grain Blitzkings because I need to sight in the scope and the Blitzkings do not shoot well in any of my other rifles. I was amazed that after returning the adjustments on my scope to mechanical center the first shot at 100 yards was only 1" left of dead on!

I have an excellent rear bag. I have a poor Caldwell Rock front rest and after letting some sand out of my front rest bag the fit was only fair.

All in all I was pleased with the initial results.

Mike.
 
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