Well, you're a proponent Al, and this is a forum where people are free to add personal info, yet I've never seen anyone provide real proof that this matters and that includes you my friend. If there are personal experiments that have contradictory results to my own, where are they? Every time this topic is brought up on this board, the armchair theorists take some kind of defense such as the one you just used and then they tuck tail and disappear. I'm not looking for an argument, just for one of you guys who claim to be "shooters" to stand up and give us some evidence.
I've been a precision shooter and competitor in that arena in one form or another for 15 years. I've built numerous wildcats and tested many "theories" with them. I've bought all the gadgets and gizmos and run all kinds of experiments and not once have I seen a cartridge with .004" or .003" runout not shoot as good as the flatliners or provide any discernable difference that could be solely contributed to the straight case. This includes 6ppc's in registered comp from 100 to 200 yards all the way out to full custom big bores at 2100 yard score shoots. In fact, many of my best aggs and groups were shot with ammo that was .004" out. So I think I have somewhat of a platform to speak from when I say, "zero, zippo, notta".
I would love to see some evidence to the contrary. I really would. That would perhaps justify my expensive purchases to fix this so-called "problem". I have an open mind and love to learn new things. But thus far, I have to say your side has left the plate a bit empty thus far. And I think it's important for shooters reading any of this forum who are just starting out and trying to get info to be presented with all the facts and also to prevent them from wasting valuable learning curve time and hard earned cash on things that they can't fix and things that won't matter anyway. It would be much more beneficial to them and to you (if you compete or plan to) to spend 98% of your time perfecting your technique, keeping your gun in tune, and learning how to read the wind flags. These are the things that really matter. All the other stuff combined might make up the remaining 2%. Might!
Bottom line: be honest with yourself. Run your own experiments and learn from them. Don't just take the popular notion and except it as truth. If they prove out, great. You're ahead of the game. If they don't, you just learned more knowledge for yourself and saved yourself valuable time in the future. The key is being honest with yourself and accepting your results whatever they may be.
Well, I like the way you think in this thread..... and I believe you when you say you've tested as you have.
All's I can say is, you've obviously not read any of my stuff on the subject. I'm not "a proponent" of the common rhetoric about making straight ammunition, in fact I'm one who'll most often jump in to state that you can buy every gadget available and straighten 'til you're blue in the face and see zero gains.
Generally speaking I'm absolutely NOT a proponent of "straight" or "straightened" ammunition..... if you've got room anywhere in the system for .003 or .004 runout the SYSTEM is screwed up.
Generally speaking my way is completely different from all you've read or heard about "making straight ammunition."
In a nutshell I believe in FIT. And linearity. In a nutshell I believe that if you're somehow GETTING runout as listed, .003 or .004 you have a problem. This ammunition can't be "fixed."
My cases show immeasurable runout. More importantly my loaded rounds show immeasurable runout. It took me 20yrs and tens of thousands of dollars to accomplish this repeatably. I now expect it. Require it. But my requirement is very different than the commonly accepted methodology, if my rifle makes crooked brass I go after the SOURCE. I don't waste any time trying to square stuff up after the fact.
Crookedy cases but with good FIT are better than straight but sloppy cases.
And straight cases, straight loads with good FIT are even better.
I could (and am willing to) send you cases fired in many different rifles/barrels and of many different chamberings and let you check them for casehead squareness. And you'll find them to be SQUARE. I was having this same argument on this forum 15yrs ago with none other than the late Skip Otto, a proponent of squaring caseheads on the lathe, when last I measured casehead runout. After I'd found a way to
eliminate it, not fix it.
Cases as they come from the factory are all out of square on every dimension. How can they NOT be? They're made on a hammermill! But from this base lump of clay one can well and truly MAKE straight well-fitted cases. If one knows how. Even using a mandrel one can make straight cases. With proper fit.
Poorly fitted and formed cases on the other hand exhibit all of the problems you listed and more....
BTW your list of 4 contributing factors is 'way inadequate. And none of the factors listed address the real issue of
fit.
opinionsby
al
