Necking up to a 30BR. Run out!!

goodgrouper said:
Sorry Al, I was busy fixing dinner and didn't have time to type more than a paragraph or two. Perhaps you could elaborate on it since I'm not sure exactly what you mean in some of your statements?
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OK, let's just take the one example of the idea that the ejector spring can and does (in some cases) force the case (double entendre intended) out of line.....

IF the case has poor fit, in other words if it's loose in the chamber, then it can be forced off line by the spring pressure.

If, on the other hand it's fit is such that it's held in line (got nowhere to move to) then the ejector spring has no real effect.



I have to take this on a case-by-case (idea by idea??) basis because you've advanced several ideas in your post and each idea as you've presented it is valid. But my contention is that given proper FIT we can move into other areas of of (in)accuracy and more importantly, repeatability.

Here are two ideas, two illustrations as it were, of my position.

#1 is in regards to the PPC. (which is where Tony's perspective is based) The important thing about the PPC, the REASON for it's accuracy potential,has to do with FIT in my opinion..... it isn't just some magical amalgamation of ratios and capacities and angles. Nor is it just that PPC's are built straight and true. It's because the entire PPC "system" from start to finish, from making the cases from 220R cases to the custom fitted sizing dies kinda' automatically makes for good case formation and fit. The entire SYSTEM has evolved over many years with each weak link being strengthened bit by bit until we've got a fully realized "chain" of accuracy. Right now we've got a guy trying to promote a new ready-made 6PPC case. IMO it will never take off unless someone makes a SYSTEM which matches the new case. Just slopping a case into a chamber doesn't make it shoot.... in fact it will make the PPC SYSTEM break down, the result will be just another pretty accurate chambering.

#2 is in regard to case fit in a more general sense. Some years back Jim Carmichel and Co did a head-to-head accuracy test of various rifles for Outdoor Life. The structure was as follows; several factory rifles including a Savage, one custom-built Speedy Gonzales rifle and ALL USING FACTORY AMMO....

Of course the Savage rifle won the test which led to the "obvious" Redneck Conclusion of "why spend the money for one of Speedy's rifles???"

Now If I were to have built the custom rifle (or if Speedy had been given a heads-up) the procedure would have been to build the custom gun around the loaded ammunition. Promote scrupulous fit.

I don't have time to elaborate more and this partial statement of my position has probably only muddied the waters...... but suffice it to say that IN MY OPINION, fit is more important than "making straight rounds."

Maybe this can lead to more fruitful discussion :)

???

thanks

al
 
I've run a-b-a tests with 30BR brass that has significant neck runout (.004-ish) against necks that hardly wiggle the needle. With my 'normal' jam/seat (.025-ish) and neck clearance (.003) the wobblers plop right into the group..same as the straight ones.

This isn't to say straight necks aren't desireable...because they are. On a combo where you're jumping the bullet and using a smaller amount of neck clearance, it's probable the results could be 180 degrees from what I've seen.

If you're making 30BR cases by expanding over a mandrel, annealing before the initial firing is important.
 
Al Nyhus said:
If you're making 30BR cases by expanding over a mandrel, annealing before the initial firing is important.
Click to expand...

Al,
Why? To keep runout to a minimum? Has it always been necessary?
I don't recall hearing anyone recommend this before. See my post #5 about runout on fired cases.
I shoot a 30BR long (shoulder forward .125) and my brass has to expand more than most.
Is everyone else annealing their 30BR before the initial firing?
Thanks,
Tony
 
I haven't been but i have more than once looked at buying a new annealing unit. From what i read and believe it sounds like a great tool to have. Some tools that i own, i often wonder there worth. If i had a new annealing unit i dont think i would wonder that to often? I just wish they were not 500 bucks!! Lee

(This isn't to say straight necks aren't desireable...because they are.) Al i think thats what this is all about, at least for me. I do want the straightest cases i can possible produce. I am not about to throw out any of my cases just because the needle moves .003 over the case. heck i may not even separate them from the rest that only move .001. I just want to know the best way to approach this hole thing, and i have a pretty good picture now. thanks to all of you fine gentlemen. I dont know what i would do with out you all, and i really mean that. Anyway what i think i may try after talking with a good friend here is. I think i will shoot a loaded 6br case in one of my 30br barrels. That will lesson the force required when i have to run the case up onto the mandrel. then i will turn my brass. As far as annealing goes, i think its time to seriously look into an annealing machine. thanks lee
 
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Straightness?

Please pardon my ignorance fellas. When you say runout of case necks are you holding the cases by the head, or using v blocks on the od? How does runout jibe with case neck thickness. Are the ones that run out the same ones with case necks that vary in thickness? Are the heads of the cases square with the od? How do you measure squareness with tapered cases? I am new to precision reloading and would really appreciate some instruction. If you want to flame someone, don't bother, I can turn you off any time I want.

I bought 100 Winchester .223 cases and checked all of them on a v block with a dial indicator and found every one of them to be remarkably free of runout. A good batch, or am I checking wrong? The necks were all very straight with less than .001 runout. I set the length so that my bullet ogive is contacting the rifling and made all the cases the same length within .001. After firing all the cases I checked the length and found them to be .003 to .004 longer than before firing. I neck sized and reset the length to my original dimension (2.213 col). I deburred the flash holes and chamfered the necks .001 to 003 inside and out. I weigh each charge of Varget and seat the bullets in a Lee die. Checking the runout of seated bullets gives .001 or less runout.

Thinking about the physics of the whole thing I kinda agree with alinwa that fit is the key to accuracy. The case headspaces on the shoulder and anything that happens behind the case head shouldn't have much if any effect on accuracy. I realize that I am a novice here, and am willing to be educated. I also feel that having ammunition that is as absolutely consistent in size, shape, capacity, length and all other dimensions is just a reasonable starting point in the quest for a perfectly round hole.
 
TonyinKY said:
Al, Why? To keep runout to a minimum? Has it always been necessary? I don't recall hearing anyone recommend this before. See my post #5 about runout on fired cases. I shoot a 30BR long (shoulder forward .125) and my brass has to expand more than most. Is everyone else annealing their 30BR before the initial firing?
Thanks, Tony
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Tony, I've proven to my own satisfaction that 30BR cases that have been stress relieved (annealed) before the first firing show less runout. The process allows the brass to be flexible enough to more easily conform to the chamber and 'stay' that way once the pressure drops off.

The more you're moving the case, the more flexibility you need. My 30BRX has the shoulder blown forward .100. Our 30 WolfPups have the shoulder blown ahead .240. Might need a bit of flexibility to make that work......:D

A good exercise to try is this: take a f-formed case (that wasn't annealed) that has significant runout, anneal it, fire it again and compare the runout numbers to cases that were annealed before f-forming. I know what I find, but I don't want to predjudice you towards any results....try it yourself and see what happens with your situation.

But people are winning all over the country with 30BR's that have never been annealed, so it's not like it's a make or break deal. Most 30BR's are tuned with some amount of jam/seat, so the negative results of excessive runout (whatever that may be) are likely covered up....the jam/seat process aligning the bullet relative to the rifling.

Like a lot of things, there's no absolute right or wrong way. If you get the results you want, that's all that matters. :)

Good shootin'. -Al
 
Never use pistol powder to blow out rifle cases. It is not safe!!!!!!!! There have been people that found this out the hard way.
Ron
 
Ron, please explain. I have used small amounts of it to blow 22 waldog cases out, with no bullet of course. I don't use this method any longer as i feel, the pistol powder could possibly cause damage to the throat area just like a loaded round. My thinking is that the pistol powder burns so much hotter than rifle powder, there has to be some effect from the extra heat? Maybe not, but this is how i think. Lee
 
Lee
You had recommended using pistol powder and when doing so there was no load data. Someone takes your advice and fills case it could very easily blow rifle up. There is also possibility of double charge and it may also blow rifle up. When recommending this you are also making your self liable. There is no load data available in any loading manual and there is a good reason whether or not you put bullet in. I know of two cases where rifle has blown up doing this very thing, not me thank goodness.
Ron
 
Ron
Were did i recommend using pistol powder? Maybe i did but i dont recall that. I have used pistol powder in the past but not very often. Like i said above i think even without using a bullet (which you never ever would while using pistol powder) i still think there could be some damage from the excess heat produced form the pistol powder. I dont know this, but one would think. I also would have to think that anyone that was advanced far enough into reloading were neck turning and blowing out cases were common practice, one would have at minimum a good head on the shoulders. Meaning one would be carefully enough and smart enough to use a little common since not to double charge a case or use the wrong powder for the task. if you will notice true riflemen are by average smart and intelligent folks. I really dont see how you could double charge a case if you were paying at least half attention to what you were doing. You have to place a cloth wad on top of the charge and if you were paying attention you would noticed if a case was double charged. Now with that said, things do happen i am aware of that. thats why you have to have 100% full attention to what the heck your doing anytime you are messing around with this stuff. If I'm down here loading and my kids come down, i completely stop what i am doing until they go back upstairs. I take no chances!! Anyway this is how i think. Some may disagree but thats cool!! thats our born right! I may have suggested pistol powder sometime in the past as it does work to an extent, but i don't commonly use this method any longer.
I will report that my brass that i had questions about in the beginning of this post is shooting just fine. I shot some real small groups the last couple of days with it. Lee
 
Lee
That is the trouble you stated smart enough, careful enough and experienced. Everyone on this forum does not have the experience you have. I respect your knowledge of the sport I simply disagree with using pistol powder in rifle ammo of any kind.
Ron
 
ncnbrsa said:
Lee
You had recommended using pistol powder and when doing so there was no load data. Someone takes your advice and fills case it could very easily blow rifle up. There is also possibility of double charge and it may also blow rifle up. When recommending this you are also making your self liable. There is no load data available in any loading manual and there is a good reason whether or not you put bullet in. I know of two cases where rifle has blown up doing this very thing, not me thank goodness.
Ron
Click to expand...

Do yourself a favor and do some research before posting hyperbolic crap about which you have no clue. NOBODY has ever blown up a rifle blowing out cases with pistol powder.......... and nobody ever will.

try this link.... BUY and READ and UNDERSTAND the book and you'll perhaps rethink the idea that "there's no data available."

http://www.amazon.com/Designing-For...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1292110039&sr=8-1

al
 
ncnbrsa said:
Some people will try anything and who is to say they will not put a bullet in. Check out these website post.
http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/32433-accidents-pistols-blowing-up.html
Ron
Click to expand...

Ron, first and foremost I just want to apologize for the scalding tone of my post. Your reply didn't deserve my reaction.

BUT.... that said, we simply can't live our lives trying to protect the stupid! Look around us........

There are so many ways to hurt oneself reloading that I sometimes wonder "how does Big Brother let us keep doing it?" And of all the ways to hurt oneself, blowing out cases with pistol powder barely registers a blip on my Safety-Geek-O-Meter.

Just don't put a bullet in!

It's like "don't point it at your face" or "don't hold your hand in front of it" IMO.

Now I'll go over and read your link..... I just hadda' get the apology out

al
 
dZEEEPERs, every time I get dragged over to another forum I'm reminded why I only read this one!

Again, we're our own worst enemy.

al
 
goodgrouper said:
Thanks Al. It would appear we agree on more things than I originally thought.
Say, do you shoot with the boys in Tacoma much? If you do, I'd like to come up there and try out that range next year and maybe I could buy you a drink afterwords? I think we could bore the hell out of the other people in the bar for hours!
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Agreed :)

I've never shot on the range at Tacoma but I've shot with several of the shooters from up there.

I'm trying to get enough practice to try out the short range group thing but have been doing the 600yd game because it's close, just over an hour away. I've made it to every sanctioned match here at Tri-County and plan to continue. I'm excited to do the northern run but it's just far enough that I've not done it yet. Right now my Borden HV rifle is scabbed into a 600yd setup while I'm building a couple real guns. And my LV just sets there. The last time it was fired in comp was when I sent it to the SuperShoot for a shooter whose gun was hung up in customs.

Sad really.......... priorities....

al
 
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