Neck/Shoulder Sizing

[ColColt]

I'm getting ready to delve into the realm of neck turning my Lapua .222 cases and concerned about one area. I've read the neck needs to be sized all the way to the neck/shoulder junction as to not create a weak place there. I don't seem to have a die that can do that. I tried my Redding bushing die and it lacks some .030-.040" or so. My FL die gets closer but still lacks several thousandths. It will size the mouth to .2488" but the neck/shoulder area is still .2525". Does this matter?

 

[Fergus Bailey]

Does this matter?

I shoot a number of match cartridges using replaceable sizing bushings (ie Redding or custom made FL dies), and in my view the answer is "no". In fact I prefer a small portion of the neck to not get sized if possible for alignment of the case in the chamber.

The only issue would be if you are seating a bullet with a "pressure ring" in deeper than the sized portion of the neck. Aside from that I don't think think you have an issue.

I certainly dont think you have any issues with a "weak spot" from not being able to size the whole neck.

 

[ColColt]

Thanks, that's what I needed to know. I use a .248" bushing now and figured I'd have to go to perhaps a .247" once the turning is over. Fortunately, I have one. Checking the neck thickness most average .0135-.012", not bad but if I make them all .012" I figured the smaller bushing should work fine.

 

[Greyfox]

If your neck diameter doesn't require neck turning to get a .002 clearance, I can't see any advantage in turning necks. In all likelihood you will just increase the clearance and give the brass more expansion. This will mean that the brass will get worked more and not last as long. Since you are using Lapua brass, it should be uniform enough that you won't gain anything at all. Why is it you feel the need to turn the necks?

Rick

 

[ColColt]

For uniformity, primarily. I haven't measured all the cases but, some of the fired cases will accept a bullet while others won't. There has to be a variation there somewhere.

 

[Greyfox]

For uniformity, primarily. I haven't measured all the cases but, some of the fired cases will accept a bullet while others won't. There has to be a variation there somewhere.

Not having the advantage of seeing your setup, dies etc, it's all speculation. But, that being said, it seems unlikely to me that you would have that much variation in Lapua cases. Before you start down the road of neck turning which could very well make matters worse, you might think about getting a ball mic and measuring your case walls. Maybe you are correct and they won't aren't uniform and that's where your problem lies. But it would still be a good idea to determine that before you spend the time, $$ and work to turn your cases. It really isn't all that much fun.

Rick

 

[Boyd Allen]

Unturned neck taper in thickness. What you are seeing with your non bushing FL die could be because of this, if the expander ball is in place when you size. If your neck increases in size slightly after running an expander mandrel in it (normal pre turning prep) they your sizing is ok for turning.

 

[ColColt]

The ball mike is arriving tomorrow. I've just checked the necks with a caliper and I know that's not the best instrument for doing so and why I ordered the ball mike. I'll know more then. I don't want to make things worse for sure but thought a light skimming would help. I sure don't want to destroy these cases so a bit of practice may be in order after checking with the ball mike.

I was mostly looking for another way to improve on bullet tension, concentricity and grouping and figured this was the next step. I've never tried it before so it's an area of mystique at this point. the tool is a 21st Century neck turner with the titanium turning arbor and carbide cutter.

 

[ColColt]

If your neck increases in size slightly after running an expander mandrel in it (normal pre turning prep) they your sizing is ok for turning.

I'll check to see if the expander mandrel makes the difference. Is it necessary after turning to again resize the neck with either the collet or bushing die?

 

[Greyfox]

I'll check to see if the expander mandrel makes the difference. Is it necessary after turning to again resize the neck with either the collet or bushing die?

I always size the neck again with a bushing die after neck turning. I do think that Boyd is referring to the expander mandrel that matches your neck turner. Personally, I throw away the expander balls that come with dies.

Rick

 

[Uthink Uknow]

I guess the question that comes to me is: Why? I mean why turn? Is there something special about your chamber reamer, specifically the neck area? The reason I ask is that I feel you may be going down a slippery slope here. When turning to achieve uniformity, you naturally take metal off the neck. So now you have more clearance between the case neck and the chamber neck. Now you have more working or moving of brass and naturally more hardening of the brass when you pull the trigger. This may bring on annealing for you or shorter brass life. So, how do you combat that? You'll probably need a custom reamer with a different neck dimension. So what are you planning to do with this rifle?

 

[Greyfox]

I guess the question that comes to me is: Why? I mean why turn? Is there something special about your chamber reamer, specifically the neck area? The reason I ask is that I feel you may be going down a slippery slope here. When turning to achieve uniformity, you naturally take metal off the neck. So now you have more clearance between the case neck and the chamber neck. Now you have more working or moving of brass and naturally more hardening of the brass when you pull the trigger. This may bring on annealing for you or shorter brass life. So, how do you combat that? You'll probably need a custom reamer with a different neck dimension. So what are you planning to do with this rifle?

+1

Rick

 

[ColColt]

When turning to achieve uniformity, you naturally take metal off the neck. So now you have more clearance between the case neck and the chamber neck.

Is that not the case regardless of rifle/chamber?

So what are you planning to do with this rifle?

Punching paper, like most of us. Do you think it's an exercise in futility to try and get as much accuracy out of this rifle as possible by trying to make all cases uniform? I weigh bullets, cases, charge cases by hand, use a bushing die, seat the bullets with a Forster Bench Rest seat die, turning is just another step hopefully toward better groups.

 

[SGJennings]

Is that not the case regardless of rifle/chamber?

No.

When we turn necks, at least most of us, are turning necks are doing it in custom chambered, tight-necked barrels.

I.e., the reamer is set up to cut a chamber that allows us to turn necks down, generally for uniformity, without getting slopping case-neck to chamber-neck fit.

So, if you are shooting in a factory 222 Remington chamber, turning your necks is likely a waste of time as the bullet has already released before the case neck comes in contact with the chamber neck.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[ColColt]

So, if you are shooting in a factory 222 Remington chamber, turning your necks is likely a waste of time as the bullet has already released before the case neck comes in contact with the chamber neck.

Hope that makes sense.

It does but, I hate to hear it as I've already bought the turner. I just thought I was doing something good to improve the accuracy of the Sako Vixen Heavy barrel rifle I have.

Would a light "clean up" help anyway? In other words, just hit the high spots.

 

[ColColt]

The turner and ball mike just arrived. It seems, as some have indicated, I've made a big mistake. According to the ball mike the Lapua cases vary .013-.0135". Even my Winchester 270 brass varies but .002-.003" which for a hunting rifle I would feel acceptable. I guess I bought the farm. Admittedly, I was wrong.

 

[Dick Grosbier]

Does this matter?

No.

 

[Boyd Allen]

Years back, make that decades, I compared turned vs. unturned using a reasonably good shooting Remington .222, and found no advantage. what are the diameters of your case mouths, in loaded and fired conditions? What I am getting at is what sort of clearance your loaded rounds have. I usually figure that the chamber neck is about a thousandth larger than the fired neck of a case that has been trimmed before firing. Factory loaded rounds, that were crimped a little, and bulk brass that has the ends of its necks deformed when they were tumbled, need to be fired and trimmed first, and softer brass does not spring back as much as harder. I should mention that that was before I was loading at the range, using wind flags, or knew as much about working up loads.

 

[Dick Grosbier]

The turner and ball mike just arrived. It seems, as some have indicated, I've made a big mistake. According to the ball mike the Lapua cases vary .013-.0135". Even my Winchester 270 brass varies but .002-.003" which for a hunting rifle I would feel acceptable. I guess I bought the farm. Admittedly, I was wrong.

If you said this was a custom chamber I never saw it. If you are talking about a Factory chamber you are looking for a solution to a problem that does not exist.
With the consistency of modern brass particularly Lapua, or Norma, neck turning is hardly necessary even in custom chambers. 30 years ago when I started shooting BR the best available brass neck thickness varied a lot, so necks were cut smaller and neck turning was necessary. In a Factory chamber neck turning increases the amount the brass necks are worked and leads to shorter brass life, also not a good thing.
Dick

 

[Greyfox]

The turner and ball mike just arrived. It seems, as some have indicated, I've made a big mistake. According to the ball mike the Lapua cases vary .013-.0135". Even my Winchester 270 brass varies but .002-.003" which for a hunting rifle I would feel acceptable. I guess I bought the farm. Admittedly, I was wrong.

I wouldn't get too upset about buying neck turning tools. If you stay in the accuracy game you will eventually get something with a custom chamber that will require turning necks. Just put 'em on the shelf and wait a while. You'll be glad you have them when the need arises. I don't think I've bought any tools that haven't been needed eventually.

Rick