My problem with the "parallel node"

[Lynn]

Hulk
Bill is describing what he sees with his own two eyes so the muzzle appears to be stopped.A pick-up truck sitting on the interstate out of gas appears to be stopped as well to most people.I am with Bill on what he is seeing.

MKS
If Bill is accomplishing his tuning by looking at the whole picture and we are stuck with only 0.003 of that picture both sides will never come to an agreement.
If you only hear a large thud on your porch you may not understand why your mailman hates you.If you put up a video camera and watch your pitbull chase him down the driveway after his dropping of the package on the porch you may realise while your retirement checks are always late in arriving.
I would rather look at the big picture as I suspect most shooters don't have lasers available.
Waterboy

 

[Vibe]

I would rather look at the big picture as I suspect most shooters don't have lasers available.
Waterboy

LOL. Do you really think that everyone would have to do it? Not "everyone" has FEA software either - yet those models have proven to be useful. If you happen to be focusing upon the skeletal structure of ants - the satellite photos of the rain forest is the "big picture" - but more detail is more helpful towards your goal.

 

[mks]

If Bill is accomplishing his tuning by looking at the whole picture and we are stuck with only 0.003 ...

Lynn,
I would look at this a little differently. Everything that matters for barrel tuning happens in that first 3 milliseconds. The barrel could dance a jig afterwards, it wouldn't matter. Trying to infer barrel motions during the first 3 milliseconds from how it moves afterwards is the handicap, not the other way around.

Cheers,
Keith

 

[Fred J]

My one and only thought on this matter, A barrell is never stopped with a MD/Tuner, it is Dampened.

 

[Lynn]

MKS
Keith if Bill Calfee came out today and said your barrel is tuned properly when you can grab the muzzle and not feel any oscillations 98% of the shooters on this forum would adjust there tuners weight and distance from the muzzle until they achieved that goal.I am guessing you would do the same thing even if you never admitted it.All I'm saying here is if you want to understand what Bill is seeing and saying you have to do it his way first.You can then shorten up the time frame to suit your needs.

Vibe
I am a big Varmint Al fan but the best work he did in my opinion was on the sporter barrel profile.I only wished he would have changed several of the measurements to see if the design could have been improved and of course modeled up to a centerfire barrel/cartridge combination as well.
His tuner work pretty much tells us what alot of tuner guys here already knew.Maybe a tensioned barrel would will be his next model if we are lucky.
I have no idea what is required time wise to do any of his modeling and I am not familiar with the reqirements of using FEA software.
Waterboy

 

[pacecil]

Lynn, you said....
Bill Calfee is descriing exactly what he is seeing with his own two eyes.Vibe is describing 0.003 seconds of a barrels vibration pattern as seen by testing equipment and computer modeling.He is doing that because you can't see a rifle barrel vibrate with the naked eye.
How does Bill see what "you can't see"?

Keith if Bill Calfee came out today and said your barrel is tuned properly when you can grab the muzzle and not feel any oscillations 98% of the shooters on this forum would adjust there tuners weight and distance from the muzzle until they achieved that goal.I am guessing you would do the same thing even if you never admitted it.
Are you saying this would be done just because Bill said it ...or are you saying the shooters would do it because it was true?

I am a big Varmint Al fan but the best work he did in my opinion was on the sporter barrel profile.I only wished he would have changed several of the measurements to see if the design could have been improved and of course modeled up to a centerfire barrel/cartridge combination as well.
V. A. modeled a great many centerfires....you should study all that he did.

I am not familiar with the reqirements of using FEA
This explains a lot. Most people posting here don't even know what FEA is.

Finally.....
Bill is describing what he sees with his own two eyes
And that would be what? How is Bill able to "see" just what that barrel is doing?

 

[Varmint Al]

I am a big Varmint Al fan but the best work he did in my opinion was on the sporter barrel profile.I only wished he would have changed several of the measurements to see if the design could have been improved and of course modeled up to a centerfire barrel/cartridge combination as well.

The reverse taper barrel of Esten's 22LR rifle appears to have enough flexibility to compensate for small variations in muzzle velocity.

But the reverse taper barrel is also flexible in the horizontal plane. That flexibility could cause an increase in horizontal dispersion.

Here is a possible barrel contour that is flexible in the vertical plane similar to the reverse taper, but with greater stiffness in the horizontal plane.

I will try to model it in FEA and see what turns up. This type contour has probably been tried before, so it is not MY contour. The barrel diameter is 1" and the distance between the flats is 0.643 inches. The muzzle is 1" diameter for 2 inches so a tuner could be used. It is 24.75" long. At the action it is 1.25" then tapers down to 1.1" and the flats start 4" in front of the action. This is merely a first attempt at a different barrel contour.

pacedil: I fixed the quote source. Sorry about the error.

Good Hunting... from Varmint Al

 

[Lynn]

Pacecil
As you already know Bill is using a machine rest and dial indicators and his fixtures/test procedures are in his book.This is nothing new to you so I guess you just felt like posting today?

If you look on Varmint Al's website like you suggest I do you should my riflle as Varmint Al modeled it as well.According to the modeling my tuner was too heavy and the fast and slow shots should be showing more vertical than they are.That rifle set or re-set 4 national records.

As to not knowing the requirements of running FEA explaining a lot you are entitled to your opinion.I don't see you using it or showing us your modeling with it so I am only left to assume you re in the same boat.
Waterboty

 

[Joe Friedrich]

Because Bill has eyes like an Eagle and he can hear vibrations like a Shark and ultrasonic vibrations like a Bat.

This could be why he's so good at what he does.

 

[mks]

Here is a possible barrel contour that is flexible in the vertical plane similar to the reverse taper, but with greater stiffness in the horizontal plane.

Good Hunting... from Varmint Al

Al,
I've had the same idea. I don't know if anyone has tried this yet, but I think it could work! Will look forward to seeing your results.

Cheers,
Keith

 

[martyh]

would it be better to keep the modified profile to the muzzle and just modify the tuner collar.

 

[mks]

Any mechanical indicator is going to exhibit way too much hysteresis and "bounce". I was thinking more along the lines of an array of laser displacement sensors like these
http://www.keyence.com/products/measure/laser/lkg5000/lkg5000.php
http://www.keyence.com/products/measure/laser/ljg/ljg.php
and a wave form viewer like Audacity or similar. We need to be able to see not only the change in position, but that change in respect to time.

These could work. The ultra-fast one has enough time resolution to do the job. Any idea how much they cost? One of the challenges may be that rearward motion is much larger than the vertical motion that we want to measure.

Cheers,
Keith

 

[Vibe]

These could work. The ultra-fast one has enough time resolution to do the job. Any idea how much they cost? One of the challenges may be that rearward motion is much larger than the vertical motion that we want to measure.

Cheers,
Keith

There is that concern. The test rig would probably need to be a heavy Zero Recoil bed or rail gun to reduce or eliminate any rearward motion. Or the mounting fixture for the sensor would need to be tied to the rest sled in such a way that it moved rearward with the barrel without allowing it to move up/down. I'm thinking at least 4 measuring heads minimum and preferably 8 so that the entire barrel could be measured - one step at a time - and an ACTUAL barrel motion profile mapped with respect to time. You should be able to actually "see" the barrel get larger with this as the bullet passes the measuring points.

 

[Vibe]

You know - when Bill Calfee said this - something finally occurred to me.

The age of computers, and the internet, has provided a place for some folks to try to be "somebody" the lazy way....they set in front of a $50 computer, never having accomplished anything in life, then holler when folks won't give them the same due, as the folks that have sweated to be truly successful..

I pay no attention to those folks, and Peter, they are good folks, and they mean well, they want to be somebody so bad, but without the sacrifice it takes, so, we have work to do, and to do that work, we must simply work around them......and it's a shame, cause they are really good folks.

He's ironically speaking of his own dabbling in engineering. Something some of us HAVE spent years "doing the work", making the sacrifices in their field, and DO have the experience to be able to speak. No one has been trying to prove his tuners do not work, on the contrary, we've been doing a huge amount of work trying to explain WHY they work - and not "just" because his explanation is gibberish, but because we too would like to see the art of rifle accuracy continue to improve. As far as the engineering and physics - Bills the one taking the "Lazy Way" out - trying to be someone he isn't. I don't think anyone has ever suggested that this was also true of his smithing skills - that would be nutz.

The difference is we are not so arrogant as to try and "pay no attention to" him. Although I'm sure he is good folk , and he means well, he wants to be somebody so bad (in engineering and physics), but without the sacrifice it takes, so, we have work to do, and to do that work, we must simply work around him......and it's a shame, cause he really is good folk.

 

[mks]

There is that concern. The test rig would probably need to be a heavy Zero Recoil bed or rail gun to reduce or eliminate any rearward motion. Or the mounting fixture for the sensor would need to be tied to the rest sled in such a way that it moved rearward with the barrel without allowing it to move up/down. I'm thinking at least 4 measuring heads minimum and preferably 8 so that the entire barrel could be measured - one step at a time - and an ACTUAL barrel motion profile mapped with respect to time. You should be able to actually "see" the barrel get larger with this as the bullet passes the measuring points.

Just got a reply from Keyence. The ultra-fast sensors are $7-9k each.

 

[Lynn]

Vibe
Put away the moonshine and stay focused on the tuners.Probaly one of your worst posts but let me ask you this question.
Doesn't Bill live near a large military base? I only ask because someone told me he had access to cannon barrels or the engineers who were working on them.
Waterboy

 

[Vibe]

Just got a reply from Keyence. The ultra-fast sensors are $7-9k each.

Thanks. I'm going to ask Monday or so if I could get one cheaper through work...we use a LOT of their other devices.

 

[Vibe]

Vibe
Put away the moonshine and stay focused on the tuners.Probaly one of your worst posts but let me ask you this question.
Doesn't Bill live near a large military base? I only ask because someone told me he had access to cannon barrels or the engineers who were working on them.
Waterboy

Don't know what he might live next to . I wouldn't expect him to listen to them any more than he listens to us though.

 

[jGEE]

Thanks. I'm going to ask Monday or so if I could get one cheaper through work...we use a LOT of their other devices.

Maybe they will knock off about $8800 and make 'em within reach.......................................

 

[steve b.]

Varmint Al,

Prior to machining the outside profile to match that design, would you want to indicate the barrel so the natural curve of the bore is pointed either up or down? Seems like that may further help that profile you have shown.

Thanks for your work! Looks good.

s.