muzzle runout Gordy's method

Well, alinwa i don't mean to step on somebody's toes, i like reading your form discussions about barrel fitting and such but what i'm reading may be wrong in respect to what you guys mean about the chambers being straight and when i refer to barrels being crooked if that caused a lot of work for you guys it sounded like to me the barrels were way crooked causing you alot of setup by the way what's your opinion of crooked is i don't quite follow because i make rifle barrels for a living and yes i have seen barrels that i wouldn't want to work with even though they may shoot just fine but as a barrel manufacturer we try to give you guys a straight barrel as possible so as to make your machine time not be a big chore so i'm not saying send all these barrels back but if they're hard to work with it doesn't hurt to ask the manufacturer what may have occured to cause such a banana effect and yes all barrels aren't crooked but everybody has a way of working on things to get the best results that they are trying to achieve and i apologize again if i stepped on somebody's toes cause it's obvious i don't know what i'm talking about from now on i'll just read and keep my mouth shut.
thanks stan
 
stan no steppinghere ontoes but i cant understandyour posts because theyallruntogether withno punctuationan im a perty good reeder
 
It does make for painfully slow reading... don't give up... just slow done and add some punctuation, etc...

I prefer to thread and fit the barrel to the action before chambering simply because I can index the barrel where I want (if it is fluted) or if I want the 'high' spot up...

I have no problem head spacing the chamber exactly after all that is done...
 
Gordy is wrong. The majority of Barrels are not curved like a bannana, but rather have spots at various places in the length of the ID that run out with other spots.

I made a post a awhile back stating how I actually cut a barrel into peices after scribing a straight line down it to see how the various runnout spots ran in relation to each other.

There are way to many people who make assumptions without actually checking and verifying results.

Al is right. There has never been a barrel that has a perfectly straight ID. They all have spots that are not truly straight with others, it is simply a matter of degree.

I have written several times a procedure for actually checking you work after doing a chamber job, I can spot set-ups that will produce "stacked tolerances" in a second. I try not to comment because I do not like getting into arguements with those who are ignorant of some of the basic machine shop practices that govern a lot of things.........jackie
 
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Turk Takano told me the perfect chamber has not been cut. He said when he gets a perfect barrel, he might have a chance.
Turk has probably chambered more barrels than all you guys put together.
Butch
 
Al, and others, I don't chamber barrels the way I outlined. Actually, truth be known, when I have a barrel to chamber these days, I take it over to Joel Pendergraft's and watch him do it. He has more skill with a lathe than me -- he's one of those guys that has a sort of magical connection with tools. But now he's turned professional, I guess I'll start doing my own again. I'm sure he'd still do mine, but it doesn't seem right.

Anyway, the interesting thing about Gordy's chambering method for most of us isn't the details of "how," but the thinking that underlies it. His model on which of the inevitable compromises one has to make is a bit different, but interesting. So what's worth exploring is given that model, what's the best/easiest/fastest way to do it.

And as a note to Al, Stan Taylor (wvredneck) is a pretty smart man. He may not be as educated, and may have poor writing skills, but as I'm sure you know, education and writing skills aren't an indication of intelligence.

It's easy to poke fun about writing on a forum that happens to require that skill. But it is rarely productive, and can hurt. It's different if someone is just too busy or sloppy to communicate well -- in that case, they are insulting you -- but that's not what Stan was doing.

Charles
 
Charles E said:
And as a note to Al, Stan Taylor (wvredneck) is a pretty smart man. He may not be as educated, and may have poor writing skills, but as I'm sure you know, education and writing skills aren't an indication of intelligence.

It's easy to poke fun about writing on a forum that happens to require that skill. But it is rarely productive, and can hurt. It's different if someone is just too busy or sloppy to communicate well -- in that case, they are insulting you -- but that's not what Stan was doing.

Charles
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Where does this stuff come from?

"insulting"?????

"poking fun"???????

judgements about a man's "smartness"?????

Sorry Charles, I know you mean well but give me some credit

al
 
This isn't shooting or gunsmithing, but there is enough nastiness on the forum that perhaps it's worth taking some of Wilbur's bandwidth.

Either I didn't write clearly enough, or you didn't take the time to read clearly enough. Both happen on the forum, all to often.

What I'm saying is if someone who can write reasonably well (say me), doesn't take the time to write well enough that reasonably good reader (say you) can understand, I'm insulting you. It says you're not worth my time.

But that's not the case with Stan. And your response to Stan was to adopt a style of writing that wasn't your own, but parody of his.

stan no steppinghere ontoes but i cant understandyour posts because theyallruntogether withno punctuationan im a perty good reeder
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I call that poking fun; what do you call it? It bothered Stan, and it bothered me.
 
First and foremost, i want to thank Charles for standing up for his old buddy... Secondly, Al i can take all the ribbing you want to give me because i have thick skin... Third, the only problem i have with gentlemen like you is don't belittle me because i hold my own in the shooting industry as far as trying to provide the shooters i shoot with a good product. I have found that 95+ % of the barrel manufacturers that we're in competition with have great barrels. I don't care much about punctuation. I try my best to learn from what you guys write so i can try to provide a very good barrel to the shooters that i shoot with so they can enjoy winning as much as anyone else does. I have had a lot of conversations at matches with Charles and i highly respect his input as far as what we need in the industry and if i had the ability to pick a good screamer barrel i wouldn't even be reading these forums. So looking forward to shooting with you sometime Al if you ever get to the east coast. Ya'll have a good one now....
Thanx Stan
 
wvredneck said:
First and foremost, i want to thank Charles for standing up for his old buddy... Secondly, Al i can take all the ribbing you want to give me because i have thick skin... Third, the only problem i have with gentlemen like you is don't belittle me because i hold my own in the shooting industry as far as trying to provide the shooters i shoot with a good product. I have found that 95+ % of the barrel manufacturers that we're in competition with have great barrels. I don't care much about punctuation. I try my best to learn from what you guys write so i can try to provide a very good barrel to the shooters that i shoot with so they can enjoy winning as much as anyone else does. I have had a lot of conversations at matches with Charles and i highly respect his input as far as what we need in the industry and if i had the ability to pick a good screamer barrel i wouldn't even be reading these forums. So looking forward to shooting with you sometime Al if you ever get to the east coast. Ya'll have a good one now....
Thanx Stan
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Thanx Stan............Now that's easy to read :)

Like your first post.

I feel that Charles' contention was deprecatory to you AND to me. (No Charles I don't just accept your view as "right" no matter how strongly you feel about it :p)


I'm no gentleman but the implication that I'd "pick on somebody" is degrading in the extreme. We conservatives are weird like that, "words mean things."

al
 
alinwa said:
stan no steppinghere ontoes but i cant understandyour posts because theyallruntogether withno punctuationan im a perty good reeder
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Al,
Read what you posted. You do not see how this post is belittling to the person. Maybe it's cause I know Stan and count him a friend but I think I'd see it the same if I did not know him. Immediately when I read the post and Dennis's post following I felt sad for a friend being undeservedly insulted. Likely you meant no dis-respect as that does not seem to be your nature Thanks for sharing your experiences on the forum. Joel P.
 
OK....... first of all Stan if you felt belittled I apologize...

I don't know Stan from Sam Adams but I see no reason to assume he's deficient in any way, here's what Stan wrote first, verbatim; I am reading this post an getting the impression that these guys are saying that there is a total runout of as much as 40 thousands indicating a serious curvature in these rifle barrels and if that is true it sounds like these barrels need turned between centers before work is started because if there is that much of curvature inside of a finished product coming from a barrel manufactor they would be getting it back not saying that a slightly crooked barrel wont shoot but why make more work for yourself.
thanks stan

So I disagreed with Stan. And with others in this and other threads because I've got a hangup about guys sending stuff back. Maybe Stan didn't realize that I was making a broad generalization but I can't know that. (I live only in my own head)

I stated that I would not send it back......

And Stan replied with an un-punctuated runon post that IMO was completely different in both tone and content from his first post.

And so it went......


Sooo, I dunno if this is an "East-Coast/West-Coast" thing or what, but thanks to all y'all's I'll be careful not to interact with Stan in future.

Stan, this is no indictment on you. I come here to have fun and make friends. I accept everyone as equals and try to treat everyone the same. This is me. Looks like I'm stepping on YOUR toes altho the reverse is certainly not true. I'm NOT upset with you if that's important to you.

I'm glad to see you've got friends who'll stick up for you

al
 
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Back to the topic of Al's thread. From a machining point of view what Jackie posted makes sense to me. My guess is Jackie was not surprised by what he discovered due to his vast knowledge as a master machinist. The bullet is on a little roller coaster ride as it makes the trip through the bore. Maybe this aspect has something to do with what makes hummer barrels humm.

I am not sure if the Gordy method adds anything but like many things if a person thinks it does then that in itself has value. One of the top barrel makers told me once that he chambered a very crooked barrel for himself and it turned out to be a hummer. I kindly like to look down the bore with it spinning in the lathe and see little runout, may not matter but straight can't be bad can it?

Early in my barrel fitting days I used the Greg Tannel method but when I began doing a lot of tensioned barrel stuff it was imperative I align the muzzle and breach end concentric to the lathe axis so I had to abandon the Tannel method. I currently indicate the muzzle and as near as I can in the throat area, then drill/bore before reaming. I never much cared for the muzzle pointing out of axis with the action.

I recall hearing or reading about an individual who purposely created runout in his loaded rounds by pushing the bullets out of concentricity with the case. My recollection is it did not seem to matter on paper which would seem to indicate the bullet still got lined up pretty good with the bore. Does this mean in bore yaw was not effected, I don't know.

Gordy talked about putting the barrel under stress during the alignment process. I solved that issue by using ball and socket arrangements on my spiders fore and aft.

Well, enough rambling for me. You can tell by my writing that I was not much interested in English in school.
 
J.

Can you describe your ball and socket spiders or better yet show us a picture..

Thanks

Hal
 
Joel,

I certainly did not mean any disrespectwith my comment, ''It does make for painfully slow reading... don't give up... just slow done and add some punctuation, etc...'' It was a well meant comment on my part.

Dennis
 
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