Meyers Spec Rifle Story

tim said:
O'kay don't tease me with one word answers. Joe, have you heard about anybody starting to play with one of Gene's deals? Half of my curiosity stems from the fact that several guns now that are based on the the actions requiring a larger tenon involve a machined bushing to allow a straight, smaller diameter barrel and no step down. Moving to essentially a 2-step bushing that allows for rotational ability with no longitudinal change seems like it could be a worthy experiment. I'm guessing that it would require the larger actions in this application to avoid too small a tenon, but that's just a guess.
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Tim no, I have not heard of anyone using Gene's system at this time but will assume there will be some that will give it a go. Gene's system is brilliant and it would make it easy once the bushing is installed for someone to index their own barrel using their own platform and yes it would require the larger action at this time.


Joe
 
Joe, this will be interesting to see if there's development with the .22. As Stiller moves along with his 40x clone, I had a discussion with him about producing bushings as well since they'd probably be cost effective and his machine work is so good, now to have yet another option to play with should have lots of possabilities.
 
-Yo- said:
Beau,

The answer is "BOTH". Bill does his index testing with a RAIL GUN with barrel block... so the whole barreled action rotates within the block and there is no headspace issue.

Then, later when the barrel goes on a conventional glue-in/screw-in action, the barrel must be indexed relative to the action. But it is pre-marked to show best position based on the railgun test.

This of course does allow a new variable ... perhaps the barrel index position is different for the "normal" installation as opposed to the rail gun. So... Bill is looking at....
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Yes, I think you would create a significant variable by moving the barrel from one action to another. You probably create an even greater variable by moving the firing pin to different clock postions. You can believe what you want about firing pin postions, but my contention would be that if rotating the barrel makes a difference, rotating the firing pin dang sure does.
 
For what it's worth, after expending a lot of rounds, I have accepted the fact that putting the barrel in the 6 oclock orientation is almost always the best and most tunable. I shoot 3 shot groups at the 4 90* points which will be 4 points on the circumference of a circle. I will then proportionally split the two low groups, and shoot one more three shot group to prove it is the low possition. This is 15 rounds. I do it in the lathe before I break the setup down so I can immediately set the index and be done with it.
 
Gene Beggs System

Works great in the ULA action, spent all of yesterday testing the system, first with out a tuner to find where the bare barrel shot best then with the tuner. Used up over a brick of ammo of course but I believe it works. Final test target in light, 2-3mph on my wind meter, netted a 250 19X on an IR50/50 target before it got to dark to see. Now I'm not the greatest shot so that's a good target for me. Will it do it again? Darned if I know but at least I know it did it once and that makes me feel better!

dennis
 
Guys,

I'm sorry but I made a mistake in describing Bill's Railgun. His description was based on a phone call and I never had text or photos to work from. Basically it IS a barrel block system but he's figured out a way to index the barrel on the rail gun without turning the action. Bill's going to have to explain it more fully because his rail gun system is different than what Gene Beggs is doing. From what I understand now, it's something more similar to an Anschutz 2000 system where what would be called the "action" (bolt enclosure/trigger hanger etc.) is tied to the clamping system so all you have to do is spin the barrel.
 
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The Action?

Tim, if you mean where did I get the action, it's a New Ultra Light Arms action from Mel Forbes, I've had it for several years, I'm not sure what they sell for now but you can check out his web site.

Dennis
 
The question of whether indexing has been applied to rim fires can be answered by looking at the work Mike Ross has done. This is all covered in the Rimfire forum. All his work was done with a press fit barrel (Anschutz) so threads weren't a problem and there was no need for a bushing in the receiver. He proved value of indexing and it was applied to several guns - used mostly in position shooting rather than benchrest. It seems indexing a rim fire barrel has met the test for improving accuracy to about the same extent or degree as the various other methods or devices, e.g. tuners, crowning, bedding, lapping, ammo lot selection, rim measurement, cartridge weighing, firing pin position, chamber size, headspace control, etc.
 
Dennis D. said:
Tim, if you mean where did I get the action, it's a New Ultra Light Arms action from Mel Forbes, I've had it for several years, I'm not sure what they sell for now but you can check out his web site.

Dennis
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The bushing, I have a ULA.
 
pacecil said:
The question of whether indexing has been applied to rim fires can be answered by looking at the work Mike Ross has done. This is all covered in the Rimfire forum. All his work was done with a press fit barrel (Anschutz) so threads weren't a problem and there was no need for a bushing in the receiver. He proved value of indexing and it was applied to several guns - used mostly in position shooting rather than benchrest. It seems indexing a rim fire barrel has met the test for improving accuracy to about the same extent or degree as the various other methods or devices, e.g. tuners, crowning, bedding, lapping, ammo lot selection, rim measurement, cartridge weighing, firing pin position, chamber size, headspace control, etc.
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You knew this, ultimately, was coming. Who's responsible for bed check over at the asylum? And for those of you keeping score 0 for 439.
 
Dang, Tim....

I figured I could slip one by you, but you're just too sharp. Thanks for the kind thoughts anyway!
 
Cecil, I have disagreed with you on several of your past thoughts but I have expended a lot of ammo testing indexing, and you're right on this one. There are none so blind as those that will not see.
 
Dennis D. said:
I made the bushing myself, put 4 notches in it and use a shotgun choke wrench to adjust it.
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Dennis,

The tool I made to adjust my first indexing bushing was patterned after a Briley shotgun choke wrench. Works good; huh? :)

When I first began experimenting with the index bushing, it was necessary to remove the barrel completely to make adjustments. I then turned the bushing around, with the slots toward the breech and reached in from behind with a screwdriver like tool with a 5/32" X 1" square key. I could visually place the barrel where I wanted it minus about 30 degrees to allow for tightening and snug up the bushing with the rear entry tool and then tighten the barrel in the normal manner.

This worked pretty good, but I began to wonder if it was necessary. I now believe it is best to simply remove the barrel, place the bushing in the correct position using a depth mike, lock it into place with a set screw, and replace the barrel. This is a lot simpler and in view of the fact that once the best clock position is found, it will never be necessary to change it. We don't constantly adjust the indexing bushing like we do a tuner; it's a one time deal and the best position will be found at one of four positions; 12, 3, 6, or 9. Once in a while, you can improve accuracy slightly by bracketing the primary position with an eighth of a turn in one direction or the other but that's really splitting hairs. :rolleyes:

So far, this project has benefited the rimfire shooters more than the centerfire guys, but I'm sure that with a little time, I'll get it perfected for the centerfire rifles. :)

Good shootin' and Happy Holidays!

Gene Beggs
 
Gene

I have always tried to figure out a simple way to index but found that sometimes I guessed right and more often not! This method let me do all of the adjustments at the range with a few tools, really appreciate your sharing the idea here.

Dennis
 
pacecil said:
I figured I could slip one by you, but you're just too sharp. Thanks for the kind thoughts anyway!
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Cec, you keep showing up at the party with your pants on backward and a lampshade on your head. I'm just telling you you look funny. Don't quit though the world would be more boring. And by the way you're now 1 for 440, atta boy I knew you could do it.:D
 
A coned breech

will help when indexing barrels in a press fit receiver. There are drawbacks however.
In order to get the extractors under the case rim the lip at the front of the cone must be very thin. This thin lip will support the case and the lip or the steel cone won't fail at rimfire pressure but it does allow the case to expand enough that brass not fully annealed might be brittle enough to fail.
In a 45 deg cone with a lip of about .015 and pressure of 25000 psi., stress level in the brass can easily go above the yield point. It's only the fairly high elongation in annealed brass that will prevent it from cracking. Shooters and gunsmiths should be aware of this and hold the lip as heavy as possible and use ammo of high quality annealed brass.
Here's an FEA of a typical coned breech and 22 case. Deformation is 50X. Stress and expansion is highest under the lip.
moz-screenshot-8.jpg
 
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Cecil, maximum SAAMI pressure is 24,000. I'd suspect most match stuff is well under that. There's been a fair bit of post ignition case measuring that's been done.
 
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