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steve b.
Guest
s.
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Meyers Spec Rifle Story
- Thread starter Joe Friedrich
- Start date
This is an exact quote that I took from the article: "I can index the entire barreled action this way simply by unclamping the barrel blocks, rotating the barrel and then re-clamping the system."
Hovis
Joe Friedrich
Member
Either you believe indexing will help a barrel or you believe it will not. Is it beneficial or better put "absolutely worthless" you will likely get different opinions based on their findings regarding how it was done and how much testing was involved.
As far as the article, Paul did an exceptional job as always, and Thanks Bill for sharing your story to those that will and have read it for what's it worth.
One last thing and I'm done, the rifle that shot 3 2500's and set AGG.records last year was indexed using a cone breach. With well over 35,000 rds. through the same barrel which has never been removed from the action, never de-glazed does not use a relaxed trigger, nor a 6 o'clock firing pin and still is capable of perfect scores. Is this rifle a freak of nature I don't believe so. I quote what Bill Meyers says in that article which I believe sums it up very well.
" A rimfire that shoots great is a complete marriage of all components and of the shooters need to be aware of everything possible"
Beau, Looking forward to you article.
Take Care,
Joe
As far as the article, Paul did an exceptional job as always, and Thanks Bill for sharing your story to those that will and have read it for what's it worth.
One last thing and I'm done, the rifle that shot 3 2500's and set AGG.records last year was indexed using a cone breach. With well over 35,000 rds. through the same barrel which has never been removed from the action, never de-glazed does not use a relaxed trigger, nor a 6 o'clock firing pin and still is capable of perfect scores. Is this rifle a freak of nature I don't believe so. I quote what Bill Meyers says in that article which I believe sums it up very well.
" A rimfire that shoots great is a complete marriage of all components and of the shooters need to be aware of everything possible"
Beau, Looking forward to you article.
Take Care,
Joe
You're right Joe, a discussion about indexing will get you a lot of different opinions. You apparently believe it works for you, and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't see where it can hurt anything. However, I would venture to guess, without hard data, that the majority of world records (including ARA 2500's), world championships, national championships, state championships, club championships, regular matches, and behind the barn money matches were won with non-indexed barrels.
I also agree that Paul did an excellent job on the article. There were just some issues that seemed related that apparently were not. But, I think those questions have been answered.
I also agree that Paul did an excellent job on the article. There were just some issues that seemed related that apparently were not. But, I think those questions have been answered.
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steve b.
Guest
Beau: "that the majority of world records (including ARA 2500's), world championships, national championships, state championships, club championships, regular matches, and behind the barn money matches were won with non-indexed barrels. "
Indexing is a an action taken by the smith or shooter, not a result (final barrel placement). You can index a barrel to the wrong spot, it's still indexed.
You are assuming that all of these barrels in this very long list are not in the correct position because they were not indexed?
Not indexing does not mean that 100% of the barrels will by chance end up in the incorrect position.
They could be set in the correct position by chance, and that is why they have won these matches. As much as you say there is no data saying they are not indexed, there is also no data saying they are not properly positioned.
At best, you have a guess with no data.
Joe has three 2500's with indexing (data).
Indexing is a an action taken by the smith or shooter, not a result (final barrel placement). You can index a barrel to the wrong spot, it's still indexed.
You are assuming that all of these barrels in this very long list are not in the correct position because they were not indexed?
Not indexing does not mean that 100% of the barrels will by chance end up in the incorrect position.
They could be set in the correct position by chance, and that is why they have won these matches. As much as you say there is no data saying they are not indexed, there is also no data saying they are not properly positioned.
At best, you have a guess with no data.
Joe has three 2500's with indexing (data).
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Steve,
I suppose you are right and I thought someone would make that point. When the barrel is installed it is indexed somewhere. For practical purposes and purposes of discussion "indexing" refers to the process of intentionally rotating the barrel to find the point you believe it will give optimum accuracy. So, I don't think we need to split hairs on that.
I doubt that you could convince very many people that the majority of rifles used by the shooters that have won world and national titles, set world records, won local matches, etc. just happened to be set in the correct positon by random chance. In any event, it is unlikely that they were intentionally "indexed". Statistcally, the odds that they just happened, by random chance, to be set at the same place they would be set should you intentionally "index" woud be phenomenal. I think the feats of those rifles that were not intentionally indexed actually tends to indicate that "indexing" is not beneficial or has little benefit.
However, Joe does have indexed rifles and has done well with them. That's data, but probably not enough hard data to indicate indexing is beneficial. As a matter of fact, it seems to be almost specific to him at least in terms of records, etc. There has simply not been enough legitimate testing to indicate a benefit. For the record, I have no problem with "indexing". If you want to do it, by all means do so. The most you would waste is time.
I suppose you are right and I thought someone would make that point. When the barrel is installed it is indexed somewhere. For practical purposes and purposes of discussion "indexing" refers to the process of intentionally rotating the barrel to find the point you believe it will give optimum accuracy. So, I don't think we need to split hairs on that.
I doubt that you could convince very many people that the majority of rifles used by the shooters that have won world and national titles, set world records, won local matches, etc. just happened to be set in the correct positon by random chance. In any event, it is unlikely that they were intentionally "indexed". Statistcally, the odds that they just happened, by random chance, to be set at the same place they would be set should you intentionally "index" woud be phenomenal. I think the feats of those rifles that were not intentionally indexed actually tends to indicate that "indexing" is not beneficial or has little benefit.
However, Joe does have indexed rifles and has done well with them. That's data, but probably not enough hard data to indicate indexing is beneficial. As a matter of fact, it seems to be almost specific to him at least in terms of records, etc. There has simply not been enough legitimate testing to indicate a benefit. For the record, I have no problem with "indexing". If you want to do it, by all means do so. The most you would waste is time.
J
Jefferson
Guest
indexing and records
indexing is relatively new to this sport,
a lot of good shooters are indexing now and winning now,
(kind of like BAT actions in centerfire, back in 1999 they were just starting, now they are the most popular, pandas in europe as Kelblys went to vienna and sold 100 of them I know i was there competing for canada) so you can not just say that so and so action is the best, (some gents have the same action 15 years before BAT MACHINE was born so how does that figure into the equation in the stats)
indexing works, and Mr. C is finding out that is you have the same barrel profile, length, diameter and bor, you can TUNE YOUR BARREL TO THE RIFLE, some centerfire guys know this for years, (J S uses the same barrels in that way for years, same load)
However the point is OLD STATS ARE JUST THAT OLD,
the trend will be to index if you have the money, it works and we should have some of the nay sayers present for that purpose,
I am not one of the best shoters but have some inside info on this and I am convinced, take some of the crappy barrels and then index them (I had 5 rail guns, maybe that gives you an idea i might just know something)
enough for now, there are much brighter people like Joe and Beau (rhymes)
and let them carry the ball on this one
with respect
Jefferson
indexing is relatively new to this sport,
a lot of good shooters are indexing now and winning now,
(kind of like BAT actions in centerfire, back in 1999 they were just starting, now they are the most popular, pandas in europe as Kelblys went to vienna and sold 100 of them I know i was there competing for canada) so you can not just say that so and so action is the best, (some gents have the same action 15 years before BAT MACHINE was born so how does that figure into the equation in the stats)
indexing works, and Mr. C is finding out that is you have the same barrel profile, length, diameter and bor, you can TUNE YOUR BARREL TO THE RIFLE, some centerfire guys know this for years, (J S uses the same barrels in that way for years, same load)
However the point is OLD STATS ARE JUST THAT OLD,
the trend will be to index if you have the money, it works and we should have some of the nay sayers present for that purpose,
I am not one of the best shoters but have some inside info on this and I am convinced, take some of the crappy barrels and then index them (I had 5 rail guns, maybe that gives you an idea i might just know something)
enough for now, there are much brighter people like Joe and Beau (rhymes)
and let them carry the ball on this one
with respect
Jefferson
This has all been interesting and I suspect like center fire, because the equipment, ammo, shooters have all been improving, the measurable improvements are getting smaller and harder to identify. Anyway my question which I'm surprised has not, to my knowledge, surfaced here prior. Has anybody followed the thread over on the CF board started by Gene Beggs and the development of his threaded bushing system for indexing of threaded barrels? One of his considerations seems to be that you may need more than one spot and this thing allows for stable headspace adjustability. Why not a rimfire application?
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J
J Pappas
Guest
Well Nobody Asked
Well, no one has asked yet, but yes I index the parallel noodle when I use it.
Well, no one has asked yet, but yes I index the parallel noodle when I use it.
Tim,
I saw some of the CF thread but not a lot. I guess the question I would have with CF is the number of rounds required to test the indexing. I mean what is the usable life of a CF barrel? Is the benefit gained worth the cost of using a lot of that barrel life? It seems that any good statistical test of indexing requires a lot of rounds. Not a problem with rimfire, but seems like it would be with CF.
James,
I agree, the noodle requires indexing.
Fred,
I'm curious. Which statements would you want him to repudiate? Was it beneficial? Do you use it now?
Joe Friedrich
Member
This is getting better by the day. Cone or extractor cuts. One can,t be proven to be better than the other. Barrel vibration comes into play at some point. Is there a difference between a barrel block and the action bedded in a stock? Is a tuner used when indexing? Next comes the glue in to get the best accuracy.At what point is that done? Seems like a lot of guess work and hope and not a lot of proven facts.
K
Keith23
Guest
Beau
The one thing that strikes me as a negative to coning the barrel chamber breech is the little small circle of metal that is left by cutting away everything to form the cone. One would think that the pounding by the firing pin on that sharp edge over time would cause problems. Yes, I know the case head absorbs most of the blow, but still!!!
Now having said that, I have shot coned beeches since 1992 with no problems. This must be just one more thing that seems like it could be a problem but really isn't as long as your firing pin is not too long or your spring too heavy!
Now for all of you guys that shoot matches. This indexing thing is hog wash! Not worth the time or effort, let alone, the money. Gunsmiths are charging way too much for this service. If you shoot anywhere near me just don't do it!!! Happy Thanksgiving! Thank you!
The one thing that strikes me as a negative to coning the barrel chamber breech is the little small circle of metal that is left by cutting away everything to form the cone. One would think that the pounding by the firing pin on that sharp edge over time would cause problems. Yes, I know the case head absorbs most of the blow, but still!!!
Now having said that, I have shot coned beeches since 1992 with no problems. This must be just one more thing that seems like it could be a problem but really isn't as long as your firing pin is not too long or your spring too heavy!
Now for all of you guys that shoot matches. This indexing thing is hog wash! Not worth the time or effort, let alone, the money. Gunsmiths are charging way too much for this service. If you shoot anywhere near me just don't do it!!! Happy Thanksgiving! Thank you!
O'kay don't tease me with one word answers. Joe, have you heard about anybody starting to play with one of Gene's deals? Half of my curiosity stems from the fact that several guns now that are based on the the actions requiring a larger tenon involve a machined bushing to allow a straight, smaller diameter barrel and no step down. Moving to essentially a 2-step bushing that allows for rotational ability with no longitudinal change seems like it could be a worthy experiment. I'm guessing that it would require the larger actions in this application to avoid too small a tenon, but that's just a guess.
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Beau, forget about everything involving the CF other than there is a bushing "system" that might allow fitting to a .22 action.
Y
-Yo-
Guest
Beau,
The answer is "BOTH". Bill does his index testing with a RAIL GUN with barrel block... so the barrel can be indexed within the block and there is no headspace issue. He uses a bushing that rotates within the block so the action can stay in a fixed position.
Then, later when the barrel goes on a conventional glue-in/screw-in action, the barrel must be indexed relative to the action. But it is pre-marked to show best position based on the railgun test.
This of course does allow a new variable ... perhaps the barrel index position is different for the "normal" installation as opposed to the rail gun. So... Bill is looking at....
Beggs Bushing system
Bill is currently working with a Beggs-style internal sleeve or bushing. This will allow the barrel to be rotated (indexed) without changing the headspace... all while the action remains in the same rotational position. Basically the Beggs system allows one to index without changing headspace as one can do with a barrel block rail gun. But it eliminates the need for the barrel block and the floating action.
To be clear, the rifle in the article does NOT use the Beggs system. That is something NEW that Bill is working on at present.
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