Mauser 98 - The true facts and figures

P

PPP MMM

Guest
Having a respect for this Site I'll state the same facts about the military Mauser 98 without any insults to anything or anyone. This is my only and last post in this thread.
The different and most of the time low quality steel used and the ignorance of heat treatment allow for extreme variations in hardness ranging from 10 to 50HRC if measured 1mm or more below the hardenned surface.
The depth of the hardenned surface and the hardness varies greatly from action to action.
The ultimate tensile strength of the steel below the hardenned surface can be as low as 60kg/mm (85 000psi) on some actions.
The big slant in the receiver is so large that sometimes only one of the split locking lugs comes in contact with the receiver reccess.
The thumb loading notch and the punny tongue not just making the receiver weaker, but can and will break if/when the receiver is too hard.

The myth about the prevention of double loading and or jamming the bolt/magazine/receiver doesn't exist and the action can and will be double loaded and/or jammed under certain conditions and circumstances listed below:

Test conducted by me on my only military unaltered Mauser 98 in .308W.

If only one cartridge was loaded into a magazine, the bolt could have been pushed for 52mm (2.05") before the rim of the cartridge would rose high enough to slip under the claw extractor.
If two cartridges were used the bolt could move for 55mm (2.17") before the rim of the cartridge got under the extractor.
Within this 52-55mm total range of the bolt travel the bolt could be drawn back but the cartridge would be left stucked under the rails in the last position where the bolt left it behind.
THIS IS A PUSH FEED NOT A CONTROL FEED.
When the cartidge was pushed forward by the bolt to the greater distance than 35mm (1.38") it pushed the follower or the second cartridge front so far down into the magazine that the back of the second cartridge or the follower rose so high that when the bolt was (on purpose of the test conducted) pulled back fully to the rear and than moved forward again the second cartridge or the follower made solid contact with the bolt and jammed the bolt. By blocking the cartridge or the follower itself in the magazine and/or sliding the second cartidge nose under the first cartridge body. Blocking the action from any further operation without a finger(s) assistance.
The initial range of the bolt travel between 35-55mm guaranteed a total 100%failure of the myth of double loading and/or jamming the action if the bolt was pulled back (regardless if on purpose or by whatever other reason or by an accident) the action will be 100% jammed and without an interference of fingers it can not be operated.

THE 110 YEAR OLD MYTH ABOUT THE 100% RELIABILITY OF THE ORIGINAL MILITARY MAUSER 98 IS FINALLY BUSTED.

I'M GLAD THAT WAS ME WHO ACTUALLY DONE IT.

I WORK ONLY ON FACTS AND FIGURES.

Shoot well
Peter
 
Hmmmmm

You seem to have some sort of love-hate relationship with your Mausers.
The thing about the 110 year old myth being finally broken has brought me to tears. I don't see how I will able to face tommorrow......jackie
 
Good post.

Thanks, Peter.

What about a CZ550? Can I get you one?

:)
 
I don't normally wade into these types of posts, but on this one I just have to. I only have one question to ask you and would appreciate if you did try to do so.

What have you ever designed and built as far as an action is concerned?

If the answer is nothing, then what are you crowing so about. You have not only insulted members here with your comments and personal attacks, but you belittle a receiver that has worked perfectly fine just the way it is for more than 100 years. Yes there have been times of war where the quality of the steel and heat treatment have been lack luster, but most have stood the test of time very well. Sorry if that bothers you so much that you have to come here to tell us about it, but this simply isnt't the place for the posts.

This is a benchrest forum on gunsmithing. Since everyone here agrees that the receiver is not the best for that purpose, please move on and hush about it.

And just keep this in mind if you will from now on, it is very easy to sit behind the computer screen and call someone names, just what do you think it makes you to do so though????
 
Cntryboy,

You are far to polite, the guy is just a know all dickhead. I can't believe anybody would have the gall to post something as self proclaiming as his comment about being the guy that busted the 110 year old myth, for god's sake man !!!

We'd all be far better off to ignore his posts, but we don't. To respond to a fool like this just empowers him since he believes that people give a toss about what he is saying, it makes it worth him having posted in the first place.
 
Just one question. This dubble loading that you are talking about, why is it such a problem? If you were facing a cape buffalo, an angry elephant, or a soldier who are charging you, why would you cycle the bolt halfways, and then pull it back? To measure headspace? Or to check if you have square marks from the lands?;)

Charles Darin had an intresting teory about evolution, and your "dubble loading" scenario seems to fit perfectly into that category. Survival of the fittest he claimed. I have used M98´s for just ten years or so, and have never, ever, experienced any kind of dubble loading. I don´t say that you can´t force the action to malfunction, I just say that it won´t happend unless you want is to...:rolleyes:

And as for hardness, isn´t the important part how much preasure the action can handle, and how safe it is if it would fail?
 
PPP MMM said:
Having a respect for this Site I'll state the same facts about the military Mauser 98 without any insults to anything or anyone. This is my only and last post in this thread.
The different and most of the time low quality steel used and the ignorance of heat treatment allow for extreme variations in hardness ranging from 10 to 50HRC if measured 1mm or more below the hardenned surface.
The depth of the hardenned surface and the hardness varies greatly from action to action.
The ultimate tensile strength of the steel below the hardenned surface can be as low as 60kg/mm (85 000psi) on some actions.
The big slant in the receiver is so large that sometimes only one of the split locking lugs comes in contact with the receiver reccess.
The thumb loading notch and the punny tongue not just making the receiver weaker, but can and will break if/when the receiver is too hard.

The myth about the prevention of double loading and or jamming the bolt/magazine/receiver doesn't exist and the action can and will be double loaded and/or jammed under certain conditions and circumstances listed below:

Test conducted by me on my only military unaltered Mauser 98 in .308W.

If only one cartridge was loaded into a magazine, the bolt could have been pushed for 52mm (2.05") before the rim of the cartridge would rose high enough to slip under the claw extractor.
If two cartridges were used the bolt could move for 55mm (2.17") before the rim of the cartridge got under the extractor.
Within this 52-55mm total range of the bolt travel the bolt could be drawn back but the cartridge would be left stucked under the rails in the last position where the bolt left it behind.
THIS IS A PUSH FEED NOT A CONTROL FEED.
When the cartidge was pushed forward by the bolt to the greater distance than 35mm (1.38") it pushed the follower or the second cartridge front so far down into the magazine that the back of the second cartridge or the follower rose so high that when the bolt was (on purpose of the test conducted) pulled back fully to the rear and than moved forward again the second cartridge or the follower made solid contact with the bolt and jammed the bolt. By blocking the cartridge or the follower itself in the magazine and/or sliding the second cartidge nose under the first cartridge body. Blocking the action from any further operation without a finger(s) assistance.
The initial range of the bolt travel between 35-55mm guaranteed a total 100%failure of the myth of double loading and/or jamming the action if the bolt was pulled back (regardless if on purpose or by whatever other reason or by an accident) the action will be 100% jammed and without an interference of fingers it can not be operated.

THE 110 YEAR OLD MYTH ABOUT THE 100% RELIABILITY OF THE ORIGINAL MILITARY MAUSER 98 IS FINALLY BUSTED.

I'M GLAD THAT WAS ME WHO ACTUALLY DONE IT.

I WORK ONLY ON FACTS AND FIGURES.

Shoot well
Peter
Click to expand...

Peter, Peter, Peter,

I don't know what pleasure you derive from these posts, but being the "open minded" person that I am ;), I wasted 15 minutes of my life trying to duplicate your "proof".

I started with a military Model '98/'09 Argentine action that has the factory original feed rails and magazine follower (not "Dremeled" as was mentioned in your prior thread). I tried 7x57, 8x57, and 7.65x53 ammo, and tried feeding from both sides of the magazine, both with several cartridges in the magazine, and without. In no instance was I able to partially feed a round and have the following round pop up enough to engage the drawn-back bolt face until the first round was far enough forward to rise under the claw extractor.

Well, says I, maybe old "Peter the Fox" was onto something when he specified the 308 (which this receiver and magazine was never designed to feed). With this in mind, I proceeded to try the same "experiment" with 308 ammo. Lo and behold, the 308 ammo proved to feed just as well as the 7.65x53, 8x57 and the 7x57. Imagine that, old Peter Paul Mauser not only designed a reliable action, he even designed it well enough to feed a cartridge that would not even be thought of for over 50 years!!!! :D

Does this little test "PROVE" anything? No, certainly not, but it does "DISPROVE" the bold statement that "double feeding" is a problem with all military '98's.

Peter, have you ever seen a properly tuned Mauser? By that I mean one that has not been "Dremeled" indiscriminately. When the feed rails are PROPERLY tuned by someone who knows their Mausers, you can even feed EMPTY cases. This level of tune is not required for the vast majority of activities, but to see the results of this job done by a great gunsmith is to see a work of art.

Jim :)
 
To paraphrase Peter himself, this posting is just a crap!
Low carbon steel is not necessarily low quality. The selective hardening of Oberndorf mausers is fascinating and ingenious.
The split lug may not be ideal but it is also not a problem. Mausers have been built in all sorts of unlikely calibers and have held up fine. Having the ejector directly opposite the extractor is a good system.
Did you know this; the thumb notch is not only a thumb notch! It is a gas vent and is described as such in the patent.
I also used to think the narrow tang was a flaw in the design. I no longer think so. With a pillar of metal or glass ( and the original steel bushing was not a pillar. It was a spacer.) it is just fine.
If one dislikes Mausers, he should avoid them at all costs and use the vastly superior 788 instead. I would imagine the Remington 710 would be another great alternative. Space age materials and design coming together in a beautiful and reliable package. Regards, Bill.
 
Bill,
You are talking tongue in cheek about the Remington Mauser?? They have better metal, but they are very rough and over priced.
Butch
 
Butch
Thanks for posting the link, I got a good chuckle. I have found 3pete's posts here on the Mauser somewhat amusing because as has been said by others this is a Benchrest forum which relates mostly to custom actions and you are unlikely to find any Mausers on the firing line at a match. As such you probably won't find a lot of gunsmiths here who care what someone has to say about Mausers.
I hope 3pete decides to follow your link and discuss the Mauser actions with the guys that work with them daily.:D
It's odd that he chose this forum to proclaim his epiphany.:eek:

James
 
Chisolm said:
.........this is a Benchrest forum which relates mostly to custom actions and you are unlikely to find any Mausers on the firing line at a match.
Click to expand...

James,

Funny you should say that. I took "The Ultimate in Rifle Precision" to bed last night just to remember what a writer without (m)any prejudices can say on a subject.

Boy, was there a Mauser or ten on the line in those days!
 
John Kielly said:
James,

Funny you should say that. I took "The Ultimate in Rifle Precision" to bed last night just to remember what a writer without (m)any prejudices can say on a subject.

Boy, was there a Mauser or ten on the line in those days!
Click to expand...

John
I am not familiar with that book. When was it published and who was the author?
Or are did you mean "The Ultimate in Rifle Accuracy" in which Glenn talks about the problems with the Mauser action in precision shooting.
I am not being argumentative just want to be on the same page, so to speak.
James
 
butch,
for the record, most 7.62x51 israile mausers are convertions from 8mm 98's with a section of the front of the reciever turned down to remove the 7.92 designation and the 7.62 added.

in addition the israiles alco contracted with FN for some built NEW 7.62 98 mausers. so they do exist...i own one. yes there is a small difference in 308 win and 7.62x51 nato, but in a mauser action wIth std loadings its nearly a non-issue. the real issue is with spanish designed rifles and thier own unique low pressure version called 7.62 CETME.
 
there was/is no 7.92 designation on a k98 reciever. they were scrubbed of german marking, because the jewish state of israel did not want to have rifles with nazi markings on them.
 
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