Definitely the ranges I’m interested in. Thank you
Mandrel v bushing dies on case necks?
- Thread starter Mram10
- Start date
Definitely the ranges I’m interested in. Thank you
Great info. Thank you
Al,
You’re such a sad creature. Always looking for a way to call someone out for asking a “why”. Still don’t care what you think. I haven’t been snotty with anyone. Get a life. Plenty of good guys on here that answer questions understanding that the “why” is important. Nobody has time to read your 20 minute rants. I’ve really tried to like you but you’re just miserable
You’re such a sad creature. Always looking for a way to call someone out for asking a “why”. Still don’t care what you think. I haven’t been snotty with anyone. Get a life. Plenty of good guys on here that answer questions understanding that the “why” is important. Nobody has time to read your 20 minute rants. I’ve really tried to like you but you’re just miserable
I experimented with the mandrel method when shooting the 30 WareWolf (basically a .165 short 308 Lapua) my HBR gun. And no...it was not with any sort of Lee collet die lash up. 
Initially, it seemed to show some slight accuracy improvement.
What I was actually seeing was that the mandrel was a bandaid for how bad the necks I.D.'s were. They were round but also tapered. Like this, top to bottom (exaggerated, if only obviously):
After finding that, I made the neck I.D.'s perfectly round the on my fired cases and tested that. The results on previously neck turned cases was a train wreck. But on new cases, where the neck I.D.'s were made perfectly round before outside turning....the accuracy was better than it had ever been especially at 200 yards. Beggar 10's @ 200 became solid 10's and the 'almost-a-10' 9's @ 200 became beggar 10's. Grand Aggs are won or lost @ 200 and the Grand wins came with more regularity after that.
Since that, inside case neck work became part of my BR case prep routine, carrying over to the 30BR cases and even to the 30 WolfPup with the .085 length neck.
Does every case need it? It depends. If necking up or down, I do it. I did it on my 6PPC with the 220R cases and found nothing with both barrels. But on my 22BR, there was an improvement. My 20 Practical (necked down Lapua 223 cases) shows the same characteristics. I haven't fixed them yet, but I will and will test them next Spring.
I don't compete any more in registered BR tournaments but still consider the case neck I.D.'s to be a critical part of case prep if you're looking for BR level accuracy.
Good shootin'. -Al
Initially, it seemed to show some slight accuracy improvement.
What I was actually seeing was that the mandrel was a bandaid for how bad the necks I.D.'s were. They were round but also tapered. Like this, top to bottom (exaggerated, if only obviously
):
After finding that, I made the neck I.D.'s perfectly round the on my fired cases and tested that. The results on previously neck turned cases was a train wreck. But on new cases, where the neck I.D.'s were made perfectly round before outside turning....the accuracy was better than it had ever been especially at 200 yards. Beggar 10's @ 200 became solid 10's and the 'almost-a-10' 9's @ 200 became beggar 10's.
Grand Aggs are won or lost @ 200 and the Grand wins came with more regularity after that.Since that, inside case neck work became part of my BR case prep routine, carrying over to the 30BR cases and even to the 30 WolfPup with the .085 length neck.
Does every case need it? It depends. If necking up or down, I do it. I did it on my 6PPC with the 220R cases and found nothing with both barrels. But on my 22BR, there was an improvement. My 20 Practical (necked down Lapua 223 cases) shows the same characteristics. I haven't fixed them yet, but I will and will test them next Spring.
I don't compete any more in registered BR tournaments but still consider the case neck I.D.'s to be a critical part of case prep if you're looking for BR level accuracy.
Good shootin'.
-Al
Last edited:
vtmarmot
P Magoon, Livin' Free NH
Getting a little confused!
So, should I be investing in inside case neck turning tools as well as outside? And if I do, how to keep the insides of the necks concentric with the outsides?
For my benchrest rifles, and some others, I size with Redding type-S bushing dies. I have not had donut issues. For most of my hunting rifles I size with conventional dies but am careful not to bump the shoulder too much.
There is a third category of rifle that I use in more casual competitions such as egg shoots. I have been planning on some of these to use body dies in conjunction with Lee collet dies. I am talking about unturned necks here. Is this a sustainable method of preparing cases or will I run into trouble after a few firings?
So, should I be investing in inside case neck turning tools as well as outside? And if I do, how to keep the insides of the necks concentric with the outsides?
For my benchrest rifles, and some others, I size with Redding type-S bushing dies. I have not had donut issues. For most of my hunting rifles I size with conventional dies but am careful not to bump the shoulder too much.
There is a third category of rifle that I use in more casual competitions such as egg shoots. I have been planning on some of these to use body dies in conjunction with Lee collet dies. I am talking about unturned necks here. Is this a sustainable method of preparing cases or will I run into trouble after a few firings?
jackie schmidt
New member
The way most shoot the popular Short Range Benchrest rounds, bullets never get any where near the donut that will, regardless of our best efforts, form at the neck/shoulder junction after several firings.
That is why I consider it a non factor.
However, in disciplines where longer bullets are used, especially in a shorter throated chamber, it can be a huge issue if the shank of the bullet gets into the donut.
The best solution is to throat your chamber for a specific bullet so this never occurs.
That is why I consider it a non factor.
However, in disciplines where longer bullets are used, especially in a shorter throated chamber, it can be a huge issue if the shank of the bullet gets into the donut.
The best solution is to throat your chamber for a specific bullet so this never occurs.
Well, therein lies the problem for most. There's no commercially available inside neck tools that do an adequate job. In fact, with one exception, most of them will make things worse.
And you're right to be concerned about keeping the inside of the necks not only concentric, but parallel with the outside. That's why the inside needs to be done first on virgin, unfired cases. Once that's done, you need a perfect mandrel fit on the neck turner to guarantee results. I have mandrels in .0005 increments to fit the neck I.D.'s after they've been made round and straight. At times, you'll have to straighten the necks relative to the case body before doing the necks. But that's easy to do with a little thought, a few neck bushings around the O.D. of an untouched neck and the tools and ability to measure it.
One thing you'll find when doing necks this way....there's very little heat generated when turning the outside of the necks. That alone tells a lot....
Very few want to go down this road, though. It's a lot of time, some investment in gear and rethinking for minimal returns. But if don't want to leave anything on the table, it's worth looking into. -Al
BOOM!!!
Well said Al, thank you
AND..... there's more.
But before "more" can possibly be discussed it must be said that this isn't an easy problem...... it's in fact one of the bitterest conundrums in the shooting games.
#1-"how do you MAKE good cases?"
#2-"how do you KEEP these cases good?"
Ya' wanna' ANNEAL?
Ya wanna' just MAKE NEW CASES EVERY MATCH?
Or do you wanna' completely rethink everything you ever knew about reloading?
Ya wanna' own 6 reamers and spend more on reloading dies than you did on the barrel(s)????
Welll, the answer is...... how good you wanna' be?
Most folks stop long before Big Al The Nyhus...... LOOOONG before.
But then most folks aren't swapping out a crappy ol' Roush motor for a Ferrea'd up Bischoff neiyther now.......
are they
michaeljp65
New member
There is a new machine out called the IDOD. Turns the inside at same time as outside. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx6MNdIijxg
Yeahh.... I've been following that deal since it came out, trying to come up with a way to modify it to make it useful in my own system, perhaps as a pre-turner or something but haven't been able to talk myself into one
I'm gonna' add something here which will be COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC..... I'm not trying to derail the thread, it just needs to be said.
Kielly states that he shoots Matches at 300-1200yds.....
And OP r'ar's right up with "yeahhh! that's what I'M TALKIN' 'BOUT!... 'at's where I wanna' shoot..."
I gotta' say this once't, just to get it out of my system. The HARDEST game in town, the most HIGHLY SKILLED game in town, the HIGHEST ACCURACY REQUIREMENT in town.
Is for Group and Score 100-200 BR
period.
For alla' you'se reading this to learn about accuracy, get this straight, shooting beyond 300 is dead frickin' EASY, child's play, compared to trying to achieve relevancy at 100-200yds in the current field of competition.
(altho the 2 actual disciplines of 600-1000 BR are tightening up, severely, mainly due to the influx and pioneering influence of 100-200yd gamers like Nielson and Sauter et al)
Kielly states that he shoots Matches at 300-1200yds.....
And OP r'ar's right up with "yeahhh! that's what I'M TALKIN' 'BOUT!... 'at's where I wanna' shoot..."
I gotta' say this once't, just to get it out of my system. The HARDEST game in town, the most HIGHLY SKILLED game in town, the HIGHEST ACCURACY REQUIREMENT in town.
Is for Group and Score 100-200 BR
period.
For alla' you'se reading this to learn about accuracy, get this straight, shooting beyond 300 is dead frickin' EASY, child's play, compared to trying to achieve relevancy at 100-200yds in the current field of competition.
(altho the 2 actual disciplines of 600-1000 BR are tightening up, severely, mainly due to the influx and pioneering influence of 100-200yd gamers like Nielson and Sauter et al)
GeneT
Active member
Well, therein lies the problem for most. There's no commercially available inside neck tools that do an adequate job. In fact, with one exception, most of them will make things worse.
And you're right to be concerned about keeping the inside of the necks not only concentric, but parallel with the outside. That's why the inside needs to be done first on virgin, unfired cases. Once that's done, you need a perfect mandrel fit on the neck turner to guarantee results. I have mandrels in .0005 increments to fit the neck I.D.'s after they've been made round and straight. At times, you'll have to straighten the necks relative to the case body before doing the necks. But that's easy to do with a little thought, a few neck bushings around the O.D. of an untouched neck and the tools and ability to measure it.
One thing you'll find when doing necks this way....there's very little heat generated when turning the outside of the necks. That alone tells a lot....
Very few want to go down this road, though. It's a lot of time, some investment in gear and rethinking for minimal returns. But if don't want to leave anything on the table, it's worth looking into. -Al
Hi Al,
Thanks for posting about this - that's more to chew on. I am curious though, what makes the tools available today (e.g. a standard chucking reamer) inadequate for this job? Is it just a matter of being able to secure the outside of the neck 'perfectly' while reaming? (I have an outlandish idea for accomplishing that, if that's the challenge.)
Edit: punctuation
TIA,
GsT
I find this interesting. From what I have seen, there are different issues shooting 100/200 group and 600/1000. Es/sd at 100 can easily be 30+ and still shoot in the .1s. Wouldn’t that same 30+ would give you bad vertical at 1000? I have had 60+ fouler shots shoot in the same hole at 100. I doubt they would have done the same at 600.
My best ppc loads at 100/200 are not my lowest Es loads.
On another note, using mandrels, you can definitely feel when a neck is different, before you load the round. Otherwise, you don’t know until seating the bullet.
Gene, that's exactly the issue. Standard chucking reamers more than up to the job, as are some of the micro boring bars. Stan Ware made what he termed the D.A.P. tool (Dumb Azz Proof
) to support the neck. We also looked at chucking reamers that piloted through the flash hole but that ended up being a dead end. Getting the untouched necks straight with the body before starting can be challenging, at times. Lightly stress relieving the neck/shoulder area helps big time.
Hope you get it worked out. I'm pretty much a dirt clod hack but got it done, thanks to Stan.
Good shootin'. -Al
Yes, what you say is essentially true. I'll try reply with my opinions point by point.
Yes.... the 100-200 game is relatively unaffected by gravity drop, hence you can TUNE OUT the vertical even when ES is 20-30 even 50fps and still shoot dots. At 100-200 a firing line composed of 20 shooters equally adept at tuning will all be shooting very small groups using small short bullets and thereby avoiding the donut. Also the small, short bullets are not only very easy to start straight (they basically wiggle into the hole and "self-straighten" because of the long bearing surface relative to oal) but they are less abused by the startup forces and easier to to manufacture well in the first place. They're made such that they're intrinsically more accurate on at least 5 separate fronts. The inherent ACCURACY of a short-range setup means that shooting at 100-200 is more a SHOOTER'S game and less an equipment race. This is not to say that equipment is in any way "less important"..... nor even has an easier learning curve. It's been said that at a typical Group/Score Match only 20% of the equipment on the line is capable of winning. I can make a 100-200yd setup shoot some of the time but I'm not a great shooter..... and
Unfortunately these same small short bullets are completely useless beyond 300yds.
Often very true..... and even sometimes true at 600, or 1000. To an extent. It's righteously hard to get 1K stuff to waterline if your ES is high.
Also true, but CHECKING with a mandrel is completely different than SIZING with a mandrel. I'm of the opinion that the OP's post concerns actually ironing an internal sizing button back thru the necks to "even them out"
I'm glad to see that now there are several very adept BR shooters in this thread. (I'm not one of them)
This is the beauty of Wilbur's forum
LOL
Especially with my Fat Butt reamers and my propensity for not even touching the brass until it's been hammered flat a couple times....
edited to add..... And, (I forgot) since lots of you'se also frequent Accurate Shooter I'll add Dusty Stevens to that shortlist of short-rangers turned multi-ranger. He's one of about 6-8 people I'd fear at 600BR...... Dusty's got some real crossover experience
jackie schmidt
New member
The problem I see with that setup is the finish inside the case neck. There is no way a single pointed tool finish will be as smooth as the extruded finish in a case.
Another fallacy is.....”you will never get a donut”. The donut is formed by metal moving at the neck shoulder junction after repeated firings and resizing. When you turn cases with a standard neck turner, the start out with no donut, as the entire ID of the neck is expanded by the turning mandrel. But, regardless of your best efforts, if you fire it enough times and full length size, a donut will form.
The person in the video obviously put a lot of thought and time into this, and the machine is fast. but it looks like it would create more problems than it is supposed to solve.
Being a Machinist, Here is the way I turn necks using my Monarch EE. It does exactly the same thing as a hand turner, just a lot quicker.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xykoVHY_Lkc
Last edited: