Machining of Actions and Barrels

A friend of mine in Colorado...................

has nothing but a manual Bridgeport and his lathe and two grinders to do small things with. He EASILY has over $150,000 in equipment in reamers and all the other equipment to go with just rebarreling rifles. There's a big difference between doing the job, and doing a job that will not only perform to perfection, but also has the appearance of a job done to perfection. No one gave you sarcastic answers, they were being honest and telling you "like it is", because they believed that was what you wanted, unvarnished truth, and honesty.

When I went to school, I'll never forget a new guy coming in, who said, "I got a backer back home who's gonna put up fifty grand to get me started." One of the instructors made the comment, "That might get you a half-hearted start, but it won't get you off the ground. Have you ever heard the term, 'crashed on take-off' ??"

If you want a really good idea about how long it takes, and some of the training, not only in school, but on the job, go to Tony Kidd's website: coolguyguns.com and touch your cursor on "about", then click on: "about Tony Kidd" and read his time-line. Its an education right there, for free, and no grand-standing, and you don't have to call and ask any questions. He may even tell you he doesn't have the time to talk. And my pal in Colorado? He doesn't have the time to talk, either. And neither of them have ever advertised!! You will learn a heck of a lot more by going to school and listening to your instructors, many of whom have worked in job-shops and other places that can provide you with a wealth of anecdotal information that can be priceless if you have the patience to listen and file away what you hear, and be satisfied to ask only a question or two.
When I was in school, we had guys who complained about instructors who only answered the one question, ("Y'gotta DRRRRaaaaaaaaaag it out'a him!!") then others who presented enough info, the questioner's eyes glazed over, and he said later, "Christ!! I didn't ask for the Gettysburg Address" After a long time later, I realized what I'd seen. The first instructor had lots of info, but if he'd started to give it to you all at once to keep you out of some of the pitfalls, you'd go into Brain-Lock from sensory overload. The second instructor was trying to keep students out of trouble, but hadn't learned how to give the medicine a little at a time, kinda like how you'd not give somebody, 3 days in the desert, all the water they wanted, all at once. And some instructors wouldn't answer all your questions, they'd tell you, "I'm NOT going to tell you everything!! If I do, when are you going to learn to THINK??" You'll learn, but it won't always be pleasant. But you better learn to stick with it, or you'll get nothing from it.
 
Thanks for more comments, guys.

Butch, Sorry that it seemed like that. Your second answer provided some good points. The first message you posted just sort of left me wondering after the first line without any further explanation about what you had said, and then it seemed like it ended on a negative note. I apologize for firing back, the internet just sometimes files away at my patience level. I know that you don't owe me anything at all as far as advice, so I will be sure to appreciate what advice I get around here from now on. :)

Do you guys think there is a place I could start with this low of a budget to do anything with machines? Not for benchrest. I notice that a lot of bigger rifles are getting attention nowadays. Large 338s and etc that can use big brakes. That's why I was thinking about muzzle brakes. I was thinking about the 2 piece tank style brakes that are on some BMGs, where there is a top plate and a bottom plate with fins directing the gasses and joining the plates together. The designs looked like something simpler to do on a CNC. I also work with a lot of high-powered lasers, and build them myself. I currently make parts for them on a manual mill and lathe, but if I had a CNC, I could make some pretty interesting lasers I believe. There are a bunch of little projects I could think of that don't require extreme precision, just repeatability.

Anyways, I know what the person meant above that said the machines are for sale for a reason.

I'm just having a hard time giving up the idea altogether. Maybe there are new CNCs out there that with tooling and setup could fit the budget, and I could make simplistic parts instead of anything requiring immaculate precision and knowledge. :confused:
 
If you know lasers, put one in a box with a on off switch. Guys could use this to line up their windflags without help. The best thing to do is produce a niche item. It may be harder to find out what that item may be than to produce it.
Butch
www.shadetreeea.com
 
Really?

I could do that. For benchrest shooters, I would use a green laser with a large heatsink so that it could stay on for a long time while they walk their flags out. Most lasers that are available in the US are only 5mW. Not very visible in daylight. I have modules that are 100-200mW. This would be easily visible in the day. They would need to "walk" the laser out to a point, the box could have adjustable legs, then they would simply find the beam in the air. That should be really easy. Thanks for mentioning it. I am going to build one and post it.
 
Ok,
The guys lay their flags on the ground at the distance that they want them. Laser needs to line up at a point at the center of the target laterally and at a point on the bottom of the target frame. You can walk to your furtherest flag and hold up something like a ping pong paddle to locate the beam. You set the flag and verify the flag setting by checking with your paddle. Walk to your bench and do the others the same way.
Butch
 
Yes exactly. The beam itself won't be able to be seen during daylight (though at night it would look like a lightsaber). You would first line it up from your shooting bench aimed right at the target like you say. Then you would have a general idea where the beam is, but you would be looking for the actual dot with your paddle or white stick while walking. You could "walk the line" by keeping your paddle up often, so that you never wander too far from the beam while walking further out.

Out of curiosity, how far out are the farthest flags typically?
 
Not to put too much of a damper on this, but with a whole range full of shooters setting up flags, what about eye safety?
 
Well, the laser does not move. Someone would have to cross your lasers path. If the laser was a lower level than the head as it would be sitting on a bench, then it could be aimed out at a low level, and someone would have to bend or kneel down to get their eye within the beam. The beam would only be dangerous up close. Past a certain distance, it just becomes a bright green light because the beam is very wide and light is distributed across the dot. It would make sense to shout out a fair warning to anyone close by that you do have a laser set up.
 
Seems to me you need to buy some time to be able to make an informed choice in products to purchase with the startup capital your friend wants to supply.
How about an escrow account for starters, a business plan and an a written agreement of what your buddy will supply and what you will provide as a return on his investment.
It is easy to get carried away with wanting to go out and buy a bunch of equipment but that is not too smart. Plan first and then follow your plan to more success.
 
I have spent some time with lasers, from small to very large lasers. A laser in the power range you are talking about is a class 3B laser which would require licensing from the FDA. The diode laser modules are available for sale with out a license but as soon as you build a complete laser it needs a license.

The eye safety issues that were brought up are significant to say the least. Given how easy it is to buy laser modules off the 'net I believe there will be some major incidents with people getting blinded either intentionally or not.

Just my 2 cents,

wade
 
Wadebrown, I think you may be referring to handheld pointers with simple on/off buttons. This is a lab-style of laser. The safety features required to make it legal under the FDA could be built into it easily.
 
Mirage, there has been a lot of discussion concerning the actualy manufacturing of parts, but very little on the business end.

I have been in the Machine Shop Business for years, we do Marine Repair. No CNC or the like, all manual machines, from lathes such as a small EE Monarch, to a 52 inch x 40 ft LeBlond, and everything in between.

We are successful because we are good at what we do, but not just in the manufacturing end. We also cultivate a close and honest business relationship with our customers built on trust. Trust that we will deliver what we say we will, at a competitive price, in a reasonable time frame

I don't have to tell you that through the years, the Firearms Industry, particularilly small Gunsmiths and Manufacturers, has been plagued with master craftsmen who were, unfortunatly, deporable business men. Many have been known to simply walk away, leaving many customers, and friends, high and dry.

So, my best advice to you is do not forget that when you are manufacturing, and selling a product, your name is on it. And, it is first and foemost, a business. Those who succeed, remember that at all times.............jackie
 
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Good post Jackie.
Very few people that start a business are prepared for the problems associated with running a business. To have a person willing to put up the money for some equipment is a small victory. The larger issue will be the set up of the business especially with a partner.
I had a partner once and did a handshake deal, what a mistake. It cost me the business, at the time it was grossing $850,000 per year. Now he is my competition. Good thing I did such a good job setting the systems up so he could keep it running.
If you have never run a busIness talk to successful people in your area that have started a business.
Do some research. A shop full of the best equipment in the world will be of little use if you can't keep your payables and your receivables straight.
Make sure you have a method to keep track of your time on a project. Buy a cheap time clock and some index cards. Do a card for very project and time stamp evertime you start and stop that way there are no issues with when and how much time you worked on it.
A lot of little things make a successful business.
 
Mirage, I have a good friend who has several million in cnc equipment, mostly Fadals and Shodas, all of which make wooden compontents. We are competitors as well as being friends and due to our friendship we talk on occasion about business styles, decisions etc. He made a very wise statement to me about upgrading to high dollar cnc equipment. "When your machine burns a spindle, it costs a few hundred to get a new one. When one of my machines lose a spindle it is thousands. When you lose a drive in your control it costs you a few hundred, but mine costs thousands. If you cannot produce enough extra parts with the new equipment to make those kind of disaster purchases, you will be better off with the machine you have!"

Sadly, I know both success and failure. Success tastes a lot better! The decisions you make in this venture can easily set you up for failure if you are not careful. My suggestion to you would be to wait on a purchase, and ask the business department of the college you are going to attend to help you do a market analysis and business plan. You will be shocked...I promise!:eek:

Mike

ps if you will purchase Rhino3d instead of using S/W or A/C, I can get you full 5 axis for a lot less than you can imagine. Just for info...Mastercam, Surfcam, Delcam 5 axis, all sell for over $30K......last I looked!:eek::eek:
 
Good point Jackie, I surely hear what you are saying.

Turmite, I have got to do a lot more research in these machines in the last few days since I started this thread, and have begun to realize the risks that are involved with parts breakage. It adds a very different aspect that needs to be accounted for, and changes the way I look at these old used machines. Some of them could be a real headache when parts need to be dealt with.

I have excepted the reality of all of this, and have passed it on to my friend to let him know these things aren't the way they seem to be at first glance.
 
Hi,

Welcome to the world of firearms manufacturing! CNC machine centers are definitely the right choice as it's how I do all my work. A few suggestions if I may.

1. Save your money and don't buy a thing just yet. The reason is right now you don't have experience and it's a buyer's market for equipment so no rush. Machine shops are going broke coast to coast. The market is saturated with equipment and will be for awhile I suspect.

2. The reason for this is while your getting your education the experience level isn't there just yet. It's too easy to be seduced by a machine sales rep. An example. We all know Hardinge makes some very nice equipment. VERY nice. They produce a CNC lathe that is a variant of the manual tool room lathes. (I'm forgetting the exact model at the moment) The machines are great except for one little thing. They use pnuematic actuators that are expensive to replace, obsolete, wear out quickly, and are a general pain in the butt. A sales tech isn't going to tell you this part of the deal 99.9% of the time. He'll just stuff the thing down your throat and go onto the next sucker. All it's going to take is a few 2am thrash fests on your new lathe for you to figure out you made a big woops.

3. As horrible as this sounds its the best advise: go work for someone before starting your own thing. Crashing a CNC can be a very expensive "woops". Go learn and smash up equipment that's on a job shop's dime until you learn how to really (REEEAAAALLLLY) program and run parts. With newer machines having rapid rates of over 1200ipm a crash is only a matter of time. Forgetting a "1" and substituting it with a "0" is all it takes to really thaw out a Visa card. (G0 vs G1)

4. Tooling. . . It's bad enough to tear up a machine, tooling costs alone can drive you broke if your inexperienced with CNC's. Guns are made from premium grade tool steels. All of which demand good tooling. One 3/4" solid carbide or inserted finishing endmill can run you between 200 and 400 dollars depending on grade, coatings, flute count, etc. . .

5. Experience with gunsmithing. Bolt actions are rather simple in principle, however there are a few features that require a bit of gene pool to sort out. Primary extraction, cocking cams, clearance ramps on the receiver lugs, etc. . . Never mind fit and finish. Custom gun customers aren't known for being very tolerant of poor finishes.

These are just 5 of the bigger points I've learned over the last 12 years of doing this stuff. It's a wonderful trade to enter and I wish you well. I just think you'd be better off to immerse yourself in a job shop for a while to get the experience. Trade schools (all of them IMO) are about one thing: Job Placement. They fill students with illusions that they'll come out of the gate making 50-80k a year. There's a glut of machinists out there right now drawing on the charity of the unemployment system. Just be aware of that.

Good luck.

Chad

Chad Dixon
LongRifles, Inc.
 
Mirage416, we have ALL dreamed of building a custom action. I think about it everytime I look at the lead time to get a Surgeon action. All of what you read here is good advice. But really...take what Chad has to say has the way to go. My smith wants to sell me his business. The problem? His shop has $750K worth of CNC and barrel making equipment. If I could afford it I would work for him for free just to learn. And he satrted as a diesel mechanic. Keep your dream alive, plan it out, and go for it. Save your money though, for the moment. The cost of tooling will easily, and quickly, out pace the cost of the machine you buy.
 
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