Lot Testing

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Dewight

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I've searched though the archives but haven't found any posts that diecrly addresses lot testing methods. How do you select which lots to test?Which speeds, machine do you select? Do you shoot groups (2,3,5,10 rds)? Under what conditions?
Thanks for your input.
 
I shoot five 5 shot groups with each lot in each gun I test with. When I find one or two that look good, I shoot five more 5 shot groups to prove them. I might add, I shoot the groups, just as I would a regular target. One shot and move to the next bull. after I have completed the first five bulls, I go back and shoot them again in the same order untill I have a total of five groups. That's the equivelent to a 25 shot target. I only dry patch between lots and shoot five foulers to keep the bore conditioned. If I change to a different brand ammo, I will do a regular cleaning and shoot five foulers before I run the next test run.
 
Thanks for your responce Fred. I guess no one else tests or there methods are secret.
 
Dewight:
One thing I forgot to mention, is I try to test lots under similar conditions to that my matches will be under.
 
The difference in averages is very small between different lots in good match ammo. This small difference is very hard to determine by shooting only five five shot groups. Actually it's very hard to determine with certainty in ten or twenty five shot groups. I think basically you might have to shoot maybe hundreds of groups to accurately determine the difference that exists between lots in really good ammo. (Truth is you probably have to shoot up all the ammo!) All this can be explained by bringing statistics into this but not many shooters have a good understanding of this What it comes down to is the probability is not very high that you will pick the best lot when you test different lots of ammo. Most, if not all, shooters simply end up choosing the lot that looks best to them, with whatever testing method they choose - without really a clue to whether one lot is in fact actually any better than any other. Remember, we are talking about good ammo here!
 
You can only test the ammo that's available. You have to have a ammo dealer that is willing to work with you and you with him/her. This may involve some extra driving to get to the source.
 
Dewight,
I rarely shoot groups unless it's testing a new rifle or barrel. I have shot rifles that sit in one plane, and shoot fantastic groups but when you start moving that rifle around it just doesn't follow suit. I don't know why and will probably have some disagreement on that point. I have some very good ammo to compare the test lots when available. My only concern when testing a new lot is how consistent and how well it follows suit to the conditions I'm shooting in. When you order blind which seems to be the norm at this time, which means test lots are not available you gauge it on past performances, lets say a particular machine and speed, even though there is no guarantee it will pan out. It's always an ongoing process

Good Luck and wish you success.

Joe
 
Joe,
I rarely shoot groups either to test the quality of ammo. I've seen the same thing. Great groups-poor score. I can't explain it either but have learned that lesson. I saw it three seasons ago and haven't forgot it. I have always ordered blind though and I get what I get. I don't fret over that. I do however, at times, fret over how much I get. But that is my fault. I can't buy multiple cases. I basically order ammo once a year and hope there is enough left over to start the next. I was left with less than enough lately. But I take fault on that too. I never know when or where I'm shooting in the spring. I just go when I can go. I'm glad I'm not the only one to see this phenomenon because I caught some flak over it last time I said it.

John M. Carper
 
There's no question that a rifle shoots larger groups if you move or reposition it, or yourself, between shots. However the statement that: "ammo that shoots tighter groups won't always shoot higher scores" doesn't make sense. That's the same thing as saying you can't shoot the highest scores with the best ammo. If that were true why would everyone keep trying to get the best ammo?

Shooting "just for score" instead of shooting groups when you are testing ammo might be okay but you are probably introducing more variables into the testing that will make it difficult to define the difference between lots or brands. It may be a psychological thing - once you shoot a high score with a particular lot, you love it and simply become convinced it is the best!
 
Pacecil,
I respect and understand what you saying. When I started ordering test lots in 06 i ordered 7 bricks of different lots, which wasn't cheap, but by the time i got to testing and what i thought was a good lot out of those 7 lots, all of it was gone, i mean all of it. So for the first 5 months i was shooting a different lot of what i had left of those 7 lots. This was all the ammo i had at that time. Statistically you bring up a good point, but as i see it there just isn't enough ammo to go around. Folks will test ammo the best way they know how, some will order blind maybe it's a case or what they can afford at the time hoping that lot will perform but we are all looking for the same end result no matter how one chooses to test.

If test lots are available i order 2 boxes of the lots i chose. I can shoot 3 1/2 cards with those 2 boxes. There just isn't enough time to test hundreds of groups in ideal conditions before what you may believe you found a good lot. I guarantee there will not be anything left to purchase. In your minds eye it may not be the best way, but in my minds eye it has worked out and will continue. I mean no disrespect and appreciate your input.

Joe
 
Joe, I sense no disrespect, I hope you have the same sense about what I'm about to say.

You aren't testing. You said it yourself. " by the time i got to testing and what i thought was a good lot out of those 7 lots, all of it was gone," You are just shooting what you have and decide as you go along it's all probably good. Nothing wrong with this, it's how I do it most of the time. This is what I was trying to say in my first post: All good ammo is pretty much the same and any difference between lots is so small you probably won't be able to find it unless you go to some extreme testing methods. (Like shooting up all your ammo!)
 
pacecil, your last statement is diametrically opposed to what I have found shooting indoors under tightly controlled conditions. Good lots shoot from 0.000 to 0.005 on centers. Bad lots shoot 0.030 to 0.060 generally. ROUGHLY AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE. If you have eliminated all variables except ammo, the variance is no longer burried in the noise floor, and I think you will find it readily discernable. Seymour Fish
 
Seymore writes "Good lots shoot from 0.000 to 0.005 on centers. Bad lots shoot 0.030 to 0.060 generally. " If that is the case, then Indon't think I'll worry about testing as I don't think I or my equipment is capable of taking advantage of that difference. So that answers my concerns about testing. I will spend my time studying the wind. THANKS
 
Dewight, a clacker is capable of making these discriminations 'in the lab' at 20 yds. Studying the wind fascinates us all. When a shot goes out, given proof of ammo/tune, it might lead to discerning what change was missed rather than unproductive negativity. subject for another thread: does stellar performance under lab conditions translate into 'cutting the conditions' or 'predictability in the wind' ??? Watch those thermals. Seymour
 
To seymour fish, I'm going to assume you're shooting at 50 ft, or maybe 20 yds, indoors. Groups of zero to .005 means you have some very good ammo! I also assume you are shooting five shot groups but even if you are only firing two or three shots per group this is still very good. If these spreads in group size is what you are really getting, that is .005 for good ammo and .03 for bad then you are getting amazingly consistence results in your testing. Your equipment, and you, should do well in competition.
 
Seymour,
I'm not familiar with the term "clacker" in reference to shooting, could you explain?
 
Pacecil, yes, 20 yds indoors at a constant temp and humidity. shooting was Suhl, Sako br sporter-class, 10-22/hart barrel with Fudd tuner.
some of these excelletn lots of ammo shot very well in the wind and some were mediocre. I was able to take the best lots on a meteoric rise to mid-pack. Learned a lot from a bunch of real fine people. Have a handle on where some shots ought to go, in some conditions, some of the time, which ought to help picking the right ammo for the day. Lot to learn. Dewight, a clacker is any semi-auto 22 lr, generally a 10-22. great fun, and bound to be the best choice for something.(?) We do have a money-shoot for 10-22's ONLY, which led to the damndest equipment race ever, and ultimately some loss of interest and smaller pots. Best Regards, Seymour
 
Pacecil,
I don't know much about rimfiire at all, but my friend Joe has provided ample evidence that in the real world, he can produce record results. For that reason I pay close attention to what he has to say on the subject. He tests, and given his results, I would say that what ever he does works. Do you shoot competitive rimfire? As of yet, I do not, but if I start, I will have to come up a long way in the standings before I would tell someone with Joe's demonstrated ability that he is kidding himself if he thinks that he is really doing meaningful testing of ammunition. At some point, results trump everything else. Why don't you and your old statistics prof. show up at a match and show them how it is done? Boyd
 
Everyone seems pretty deadset in their ways with regards to testing. That is strange give that testing is an exercise in objectivity and objectively speaking, there are really good ways to test and really bad ways to test.

But be that as it may, it seems fairly well accepted that by the time one has adequately "tested" one's ammo, the lots are usually gone. So, another approach might be to simply focus on one or two things - for instance, the labeled velocity. Will your rifle shoot best with ammo in the 1050s, 1060s, or 1070s? Because that might be all the selecting ability you have. For instance, I did manage to test and find that my rifle really seems to be happiest at 1063 fps. That is ELEY's 1063, not what it measures out of my gun. So, when I order, knowing that ammo will be sold out in 1-3 days, I simply go for the Tenex that is closest to 1063. If I have to settle for 1064 or 65, so be it. But that is better than 1070s, for instance.

I do not worry about machine. I have yet to see or conduct a test that conclusively shows that it matters - your mileage may differ of course.

Brent
 
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