LAPUA 220 Russian cases down the drain?

[CarlosP]

I have witnessed in Europe with six different shooters 6 PPC cases not holding primers (Federal 205M) after 2/3 shots (???)!
This has been happening for a while now in particular with the blue box production marked 16 (2016) and 17 (2017). Lapua 220 Russian has been for the past 24 years THE very best case available and without its quality and strength the 30 + grains of N133 currently used in our rifles couldn't be used. Any of this in the USA?

 

[jackie schmidt]

I have witnessed in Europe with six different shooters 6 PPC cases not holding primers (Federal 205M) after 2/3 shots (???)!
This has been happening for a while now in particular with the blue box production marked 16 (2016) and 17 (2017). Lapua 220 Russian has been for the past 24 years THE very best case available and without its quality and strength the 30 + grains of N133 currently used in our rifles couldn't be used. Any of this in the USA?

Yes.

I have been shooting 30.0 to 30.4 grns of N133 for 15 years. It is my standard load. Yes, cases would finally get unusable at possibly 6 to 8 firings due to not sizing down, I could live with that. No problem.

With the cases that I started using a few years ago, after 2 firings, the new primers have hardly any feel what so ever going into the case. None are falling out, but they sure aren't tight.

The cases still size down fine, and extraction is not the problem. I don't know what the deal is with the primer pockets.

That is why I am making up 175 new cases for The Nationals.

 

[Kiwi Greg]

Yes.

I have been shooting 30.0 to 30.4 grns of N133 for 15 years. It is my standard load. Yes, cases would finally get unusable at possibly 6 to 8 firings due to not sizing down, I could live with that. No problem.

With the cases that I started using a few years ago, after 2 firings, the new primers have hardly any feel what so ever going into the case. None are falling out, but they sure aren't tight.

The cases still size down fine, and extraction is not the problem. I don't know what the deal is with the primer pockets.

That is why I am making up 175 new cases for The Nationals.

What year is your N133 please Jackie

 

[jackie schmidt]

I'm on my last 8 pound jug of 683-03. I bought 10 jugs in 2003.

I picked up four 8 pound jugs on 2016 at last years Nationals fro Lester, and after testing, I think it shoots pretty darned close to the 2003.

 

[CarlosP]

Lapua 220 Russian

I'm on my last 8 pound jug of 683-03. I bought 10 jugs in 2003.

I picked up four 8 pound jugs on 2016 at last years Nationals fro Lester, and after testing, I think it shoots pretty darned close to the 2003.

Thanks Jackie for the information and it looks exactly what we are getting over here in Europe.

 

[Kurtis Brown]

you might try winchester or wolf primers, they seem to be a little more snug than a 205. Not sure what it will do to your tune , but you'll be able to use your brass longer.

 

[jackie schmidt]

you might try winchester or wolf primers, they seem to be a little more snug than a 205. Not sure what it will do to your tune , but you'll be able to use your brass longer.

This Winter, I am going to rethink my entire 6PPC program. I have shot the same basic combination for years, but that might now be ended.

I always said that we owe a lot of the success of the 6PPC to the Lapua 220 Russian Case, and it's ability to survive at the pressures we shoot. That might now be a thing of the past.

Last Sunday, I put a new Bartlien 13.5 twist on my LV, and went up to Tomball. I took 12 band new cases to test with. I tried 29.2 and there abouts, not that good. I put my standard 30.3 grn load behind a Bart's 68 BT, and the Rifle came to life. By the third firing, the primers had zero feel going into the cases.

I know a lot of shooters are saying......"this is BS, you are doing something wrong". Well, I am shooting the same barrels, the same lot of powder, the same bullets, the same dies, the same primers, the same reamer, the same neck tension, and the same Rifle that I have been shooting for years.

The only thing different is the brass. But, we all know that it can't possibly be that there just might be something that Lapua is doing different. Right?

 

[Wilbur]

Jackie - I believe you need to think about this some more. Loose primers cause the bolt face to get a ring cut in it but that's about all. Certainly, it would be better if you didn't have to deal with that but winning seldom comes cheap. I won a match once upon a time where I had to put the loaded rounds bullet down in my case box...to keep the primers from falling out. Yes, my bolt face took a beating but it didn't actually hurt anything but my feelings.

Another item I'll mention here is that my bolt face was originally not level. It had a very small (short) raised place around the firing pin hole the same size as the primer. I don't know if it helped or not but it sure didn't hurt. Wish I had measured it....

(I changed "never" to "seldom"...seemed like the right thing to do but I didn't want to)

 

[Michael Huebner]

Agree 100%

Yes.

I have been shooting 30.0 to 30.4 grns of N133 for 15 years. It is my standard load. Yes, cases would finally get unusable at possibly 6 to 8 firings due to not sizing down, I could live with that. No problem.

With the cases that I started using a few years ago, after 2 firings, the new primers have hardly any feel what so ever going into the case. None are falling out, but they sure aren't tight.

The cases still size down fine, and extraction is not the problem. I don't know what the deal is with the primer pockets.

That is why I am making up 175 new cases for The Nationals.

Jackie,

Agree 100% with you and I was using 29.8-30.1 gns of 2012 N133, Fed primer and Barts or Berger Column bullets
One yardage and the primer pockets were toast. The rest of the case was absolutely fine. Nil click etc . I use a Jones FLS die and have done for 10+ yrs as well and it is an exceptional die.
I also have a node I shoot a fair bit at 28.8-28.9 gns and at that level I don't really have anywhere near the issue. Like you the same reamer for 10+ years and mine is a Speedy/Boyer 3 with 0.4395 @0.200

Next step for me is to chrony the load and see what speed it is doing at both my loads also and try some 2009 and 2011 N133 and see if I get the same results

How do you work out when the Lapua case were manufactured?

Michael

 

[CarlosP]

Case year of manufacturing

Jackie,

Agree 100% with you and I was using 29.8-30.1 gns of 2012 N133, Fed primer and Barts or Berger Column bullets
One yardage and the primer pockets were toast. The rest of the case was absolutely fine. Nil click etc . I use a Jones FLS die and have done for 10+ yrs as well and it is an exceptional die.
I also have a node I shoot a fair bit at 28.8-28.9 gns and at that level I don't really have anywhere near the issue. Like you the same reamer for 10+ years and mine is a Speedy/Boyer 3 with 0.4395 @0.200

Next step for me is to chrony the load and see what speed it is doing at both my loads also and try some 2009 and 2011 N133 and see if I get the same results

How do you work out when the Lapua case were manufactured?

Michael

The last two digits of the number on the right

 

[Michael Huebner]

The last two digits of the number on the right

So in my example above 2012?
I will check the rest of them and see what I have

Thanks
Michael

 

[Al Nyhus]

With the cases that I started using a few years ago, after 2 firings, the new primers have hardly any feel what so ever going into the case. None are falling out, but they sure aren't tight.

The cases still size down fine, and extraction is not the problem. I don't know what the deal is with the primer pockets.

Jackie, several years ago I came into a used 6PPC that came with 50 pcs. of Lapua brass. The primer pockets were so loose you could, with some effort, push the primers in with your thumb. But the thing shot great 'waaaay up there. I got one of these Hart primer pocket tools and it did a nice job of snugging up the primer pockets. After 15 firings, they were still snug.

I also used it to rehab some 22BR cases made from Norma 6BR cases back when the Lapua 6BR case was unavailable. Again, they worked great. Those cases are still in service and have had the dog snot kicked out of 'em.

For what it's worth. -Al

http://www.rwhart.com/store/proddetail.asp?prod=dhb-f-swage-sm

 

[Hunter]

I got one of these Hart primer pocket tools and it did a nice job of snugging up the primer pockets. After 15 firings, they were still snug.

What does that tool do to snug-up the primer pockets? I assume it shrinks the brass in some way.

 

[Al Nyhus]

What does that tool do to snug-up the primer pockets? I assume it shrinks the brass in some way.

The punch actually moves a minute bit of brass into the pocket....in essence, 'lining' the primer pocket walls with new material. I've used both a small Nylon faced hammer and an arbor press.

 

[Dave Coots]

Jackie,

Agree 100% with you and I was using 29.8-30.1 gns of 2012 N133, Fed primer and Barts or Berger Column bullets
One yardage and the primer pockets were toast. The rest of the case was absolutely fine. Nil click etc . I use a Jones FLS die and have done for 10+ yrs as well and it is an exceptional die.
I also have a node I shoot a fair bit at 28.8-28.9 gns and at that level I don't really have anywhere near the issue. Like you the same reamer for 10+ years and mine is a Speedy/Boyer 3 with 0.4395 @0.200

Next step for me is to chrony the load and see what speed it is doing at both my loads also and try some 2009 and 2011 N133 and see if I get the same results

How do you work out when the Lapua case were manufactured?

Michael

I think you'll find that the correct year is the last 2 numbers where the bar code is located on the side of the box.

Later
Dave

 

[Don]

The punch actually moves a minute bit of brass into the pocket....in essence, 'lining' the primer pocket walls with new material. I've used both a small Nylon faced hammer and an arbor press.

Wonder if these new cases have the same self tightening concave surface head face as the older cases had?............Don

 

[Boyd Allen]

...or the opposite....Think about it. Were the self tightening case heads convex or concave? If the latest cases are the opposite that would give a non metallurgical explanation.

 

[Michael Huebner]

Lapis Manufacture Date

I think you'll find that the correct year is the last 2 numbers where the bar code is located on the side of the box.

Later
Dave

We'll see attached. I wonder if that is 2011 or November 2000?
All my cases purchased over the last two years have the same last 6 x numbers

 

[Dave Coots]

Here is a pic of the top. If you go by the last 2 numbers of the lot, this was made in 02............don't believe the blue box was out then. This brass was purchased in 2010 at the Nationals in KC. I wrote the date on the box when purchased. My numbers have a completely different format than post #9 has. The last 2 numbers near the bar code is 10 on mine. I don't have a pic of that.

I would say your brass was 2011 Michael.

 

[mturner]

Alloy Change

I wouldn't resurrect an old thread without some good evidence of what has changed with Lapua brass hardness. The blue box alloy has 11% less zinc than the older brass. While this is based on the 6BR case, if Lapua will go to a softer alloy for one, then they would be willing to do it on another.

Michael