ladder test with a tuner
- Thread starter RJM
- Start date
nobody caught it ???
In the previous photograph, as the tuner is turned out, with everything else left alone -- temperature stays the same -- load is the same -- the only change is turning out the tuner 1/4 turn for every shot -- and shooting at the next X on the paper--
nobody caught that the impacts have more or less formed a sign wave --- and keep forming sign waves as the tuner is turned out
Couple of other things:
after I set my tuner I never move it again on that particular barrel---NEVER!!!
I am not smart enough to tune, with a tuner, during a match -- and I find that if I try to change, or better, the tuner setting during practice all that I can accomplish is that I loose that fine spot of perfect tune!!!--it doesn't matter what the weather is doing, if I play with the tuner, I can change POI -- or I can change how my group looks but I can never find a better tuner sweet spot that will shoot as small as my original setting!!!
after the tuner is set in the sweet spot -- and your rifle looses it's tune, find tune again by changing the powder charge-- do not mess with the tuner -- all you are doing is taking the tuner off of the sweet spot for that barrel !!!
In my experience tuner settings are not temperature sensitive, or humidity sensitive --or any other sensitive --- they are mostly sensitive to the harmonics of the particular barrel that the tuner is on ---
Atmospheric conditions will certainly affect tune --- and it's easy to fool your self into thinking you are doing some good by tweaking your tuner -- cause tweeting the tuner will change things ---
Gene
In the previous photograph, as the tuner is turned out, with everything else left alone -- temperature stays the same -- load is the same -- the only change is turning out the tuner 1/4 turn for every shot -- and shooting at the next X on the paper--
nobody caught that the impacts have more or less formed a sign wave --- and keep forming sign waves as the tuner is turned out
Couple of other things:
after I set my tuner I never move it again on that particular barrel---NEVER!!!
I am not smart enough to tune, with a tuner, during a match -- and I find that if I try to change, or better, the tuner setting during practice all that I can accomplish is that I loose that fine spot of perfect tune!!!--it doesn't matter what the weather is doing, if I play with the tuner, I can change POI -- or I can change how my group looks but I can never find a better tuner sweet spot that will shoot as small as my original setting!!!
after the tuner is set in the sweet spot -- and your rifle looses it's tune, find tune again by changing the powder charge-- do not mess with the tuner -- all you are doing is taking the tuner off of the sweet spot for that barrel !!!
In my experience tuner settings are not temperature sensitive, or humidity sensitive --or any other sensitive --- they are mostly sensitive to the harmonics of the particular barrel that the tuner is on ---
Atmospheric conditions will certainly affect tune --- and it's easy to fool your self into thinking you are doing some good by tweaking your tuner -- cause tweeting the tuner will change things ---
Gene
Increase by 3 tenths each group with 133.
r44astro
New member
Gene,
I have heard and understood for some time that you set the tuner and did not move it, but rather changed the powder charge as needed. There is no question that this has worked well for you. You've said that you are not smart enough to change the tuner setting. I'm on the other side of this, I'm not smart enough to change the powder charge during a match and follow the tune. But that's neither here nor there. Clearly it works for you.
I'm confused about what you say at the end. You say you find the sweet spot for a barrel and never move the tuner again. Then you say that when the barrel loses it's tune, you change the powder charge. I don't understand what the difference is. You say that the tuner settings aren't temperature sensitive, etc. But then you say that atmospheric conditions will affect tune and that you can change that with the powder charge.
I don't disagree with anything you've said, but I don't understand what you are telling us. If you can change the tune with the powder charge, why can't you change it with the tuner setting? I never change the powder charge, but go to all matches preloaded. I begin each match by shooting 2-3 shots group and changing the tuner setting to what I need. The target tells me that what I'm doing is effective. I don't think I'm fooling myself, but I'm willing to admit it if I'm wrong.
Please clarify what you said if you don't mind.
Rick
Pete Wass
Well-known member
Question:
I have often wondered if, perhaps, lighter tuners might take some of the "not being able to move them much" issue away. It would seem to me that being able to change things dramatically with a thou or two movement may indicate too much tuner weight. Has anyone tried a 1 oz tuner weight, for instance? I gave up on them with CF rifles because of their needing to be tweaked often and not knowing which way to go with them. I just go with my best load and take what I can get from it.
Pete
I have often wondered if, perhaps, lighter tuners might take some of the "not being able to move them much" issue away. It would seem to me that being able to change things dramatically with a thou or two movement may indicate too much tuner weight. Has anyone tried a 1 oz tuner weight, for instance? I gave up on them with CF rifles because of their needing to be tweaked often and not knowing which way to go with them. I just go with my best load and take what I can get from it.
Pete
Last edited:
mwezell
Mike Ezell
I prefer the movement be small. The single most common mistake I see with tuner use is making too big adjustments. I guess it's human nature to assume large adjustments are needed when we can see an inch or so of threads. In my experience, this is not the case...even with tuners that effectively add no weigh....you still move the mass. Imagine a tuner being made from the barrel stub, simply bored and threaded onto the muzzle end of a straight contour barrel and it ending flush with the muzzle. This design still gives adjustability but not the wider tune window of a heavier tuner. To me, it seems simpler to maintain tune within a couple of marks as opposed to a couple of turns.
Last edited:
I have heard and understood for some time that you set the tuner and did not move it, but rather changed the powder charge as needed. There is no question that this has worked well for you. You've said that you are not smart enough to change the tuner setting. I'm on the other side of this, I'm not smart enough to change the powder charge during a match and follow the tune. But that's neither here nor there. Clearly it works for you.
I'm confused about what you say at the end. You say you find the sweet spot for a barrel and never move the tuner again. Then you say that when the barrel loses it's tune, you change the powder charge. I don't understand what the difference is. You say that the tuner settings aren't temperature sensitive, etc. But then you say that atmospheric conditions will affect tune and that you can change that with the powder charge.
I don't disagree with anything you've said, but I don't understand what you are telling us. If you can change the tune with the powder charge, why can't you change it with the tuner setting? I never change the powder charge, but go to all matches preloaded. I begin each match by shooting 2-3 shots group and changing the tuner setting to what I need. The target tells me that what I'm doing is effective. I don't think I'm fooling myself, but I'm willing to admit it if I'm wrong.
Please clarify what you said if you don't mind.
Rick
Rick;
let me see if I can clarify my thoughts ??
1) There is no doubt that we can put any powder charge in a rifle and bring that rifle with that charge into a tune by adjusting the tuner.
2) You can also install a tuner on a rifle muzzle anywhere, in any position, lock the tuner down and bring that rifle into a tune by adjusting the powder charge -- as Bart has shown with his post.
But is this as good as that rifle is capable of shooting??? dose that tune produce the smallest groups ??? or dose the rifle still have a little bit in it ??? maybe it's only .010 smaller maybe it's .050 smaller ?? Whatever it is, I want it!!! and I want it all!!
In my opinion neither of those tunes (method 1 or 2 ) will be the best sweetest tune for that rifle, barrel, tuner assembly. unless you just got lucky?? which dose happened
I find that if I use method 1 or 2 to tune a rifle my final tune may not be the tightest, smallest shooting tune that the rifle is capable of, it may tend to be spikey ??? (is that even a word???) and the rifle can, and will, loose it's tune very quickly if conditions change.
I find that if I take the time to find a barrels sweet spot and then set the tuner on top of that sweet spot my gun will hold it's tune thru a much wider window of climatic changes, and if it dose want to drift out of tune, it's just that, a drift out of tune, not a violent change in tune giving me a .3XX or .4XX group with no warning.
I have shot an entire Super Shoot -- all 4 days without changing my powder charge at all --- I stayed with the same tuner setting and the same load all week -- and the rifle never lost it's tune -- I won that SS--- That's what I call a sweet spot in the tune window. --That's how a rifle will act if you find that spot
While I find it quite common to be able to use the same powder charge all weekend long, there are times when that just won't hold true, and my rifle drifts out of it's fine tune. It is those times that I will adjust my powder charge -- usually by adding a small amount of powder.
After I have my tuner set on the barrels sweet spot I will never move it again till that barrel is thru!!
Hope this helps
Gene
I'm confused about what you say at the end. You say you find the sweet spot for a barrel and never move the tuner again. Then you say that when the barrel loses it's tune, you change the powder charge. I don't understand what the difference is. You say that the tuner settings aren't temperature sensitive, etc. But then you say that atmospheric conditions will affect tune and that you can change that with the powder charge.
I don't disagree with anything you've said, but I don't understand what you are telling us. If you can change the tune with the powder charge, why can't you change it with the tuner setting? I never change the powder charge, but go to all matches preloaded. I begin each match by shooting 2-3 shots group and changing the tuner setting to what I need. The target tells me that what I'm doing is effective. I don't think I'm fooling myself, but I'm willing to admit it if I'm wrong.
Please clarify what you said if you don't mind.
Rick
Rick;
let me see if I can clarify my thoughts ??
1) There is no doubt that we can put any powder charge in a rifle and bring that rifle with that charge into a tune by adjusting the tuner.
2) You can also install a tuner on a rifle muzzle anywhere, in any position, lock the tuner down and bring that rifle into a tune by adjusting the powder charge -- as Bart has shown with his post.
But is this as good as that rifle is capable of shooting??? dose that tune produce the smallest groups ??? or dose the rifle still have a little bit in it ??? maybe it's only .010 smaller maybe it's .050 smaller ?? Whatever it is, I want it!!! and I want it all!!
In my opinion neither of those tunes (method 1 or 2 ) will be the best sweetest tune for that rifle, barrel, tuner assembly. unless you just got lucky?? which dose happened
I find that if I use method 1 or 2 to tune a rifle my final tune may not be the tightest, smallest shooting tune that the rifle is capable of, it may tend to be spikey ??? (is that even a word???) and the rifle can, and will, loose it's tune very quickly if conditions change.
I find that if I take the time to find a barrels sweet spot and then set the tuner on top of that sweet spot my gun will hold it's tune thru a much wider window of climatic changes, and if it dose want to drift out of tune, it's just that, a drift out of tune, not a violent change in tune giving me a .3XX or .4XX group with no warning.
I have shot an entire Super Shoot -- all 4 days without changing my powder charge at all --- I stayed with the same tuner setting and the same load all week -- and the rifle never lost it's tune -- I won that SS--- That's what I call a sweet spot in the tune window. --That's how a rifle will act if you find that spot
While I find it quite common to be able to use the same powder charge all weekend long, there are times when that just won't hold true, and my rifle drifts out of it's fine tune. It is those times that I will adjust my powder charge -- usually by adding a small amount of powder.
After I have my tuner set on the barrels sweet spot I will never move it again till that barrel is thru!!
Hope this helps
Gene
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
The problem I had in 2005 with light weight tuners was that just every few adjustments there was a sweet spot. Not necessarily the sweetest spot but a point at where THAT barrel would shoot better than it did without the tuner installed.
Rimfire shooters who have used tuners exclusively for years have the luxury of shooting hundreds if not thousands of rounds to find the sweetest of sweet spots without wearing out THAT barrel, centerfire shooters do not have that luxury.
After Fudd Hamilton made the centerfire tuners for me that had some heft to them I found, at least to my satisfaction, I could bring a barrel into tune where it would shoot competitively without moving it again. Whatever results the shooter got after that was not the tuners fault, if the results were bad, or to its credit if the results were good, but was how the shooter performed his (or her ) part.
I vote for Gene B's method of setting the tuner and leaving it alone.
Rimfire shooters who have used tuners exclusively for years have the luxury of shooting hundreds if not thousands of rounds to find the sweetest of sweet spots without wearing out THAT barrel, centerfire shooters do not have that luxury.
After Fudd Hamilton made the centerfire tuners for me that had some heft to them I found, at least to my satisfaction, I could bring a barrel into tune where it would shoot competitively without moving it again. Whatever results the shooter got after that was not the tuners fault, if the results were bad, or to its credit if the results were good, but was how the shooter performed his (or her ) part.
I vote for Gene B's method of setting the tuner and leaving it alone.
Gene,
Thanks for taking the time to clarify your methods and why you do what you do. Yes, it did help me to understand you.
Rick
Pete Wass
Well-known member
The frustration I found
was most often when Tune goes away, the conditions are so bad it is pretty hard to tell if tuner changes were effective. Most of the ranges I have frequented are like shooting in a shoe box so by mid day, one is often hard pressed to even be able to read the flags, the wind being so switchy. I had hoped someone might come up with a system using "Density Altitude", for instance to direct one on tuner changes. I have always been willing to pay someone well for one but have yet to see one offered for sale.
Pete
Pete
was most often when Tune goes away, the conditions are so bad it is pretty hard to tell if tuner changes were effective. Most of the ranges I have frequented are like shooting in a shoe box so by mid day, one is often hard pressed to even be able to read the flags, the wind being so switchy. I had hoped someone might come up with a system using "Density Altitude", for instance to direct one on tuner changes. I have always been willing to pay someone well for one but have yet to see one offered for sale.
Pete
Pete
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Pete, when I first began testing tuners, in 2007, I worked pretty hard on just that. The best I could do was 70-75% repeatable based on temps. I've talked with others who didn't fair that well. While I feel we can get close with a pretty good success rate, I don't think we are yet to the point of being able to adjust without trustworthy sighters..consistently. If faced with having to adjust with no sighters, I think I can do it better than most..but not with 100% confidence. It helps that I've not shot without a tuner since 2008. To me it's much easier than chasing tune with powder charge or seating depth. IME tuners allow me to get whatever the gun and load or ammo have to offer, out of them. They won't make a gun or load good unless it's already good at another temp. They won't fix bad barrels, bullets, loads or wind reading errors...etc.
M
mks
Guest
1) There is no doubt that we can put any powder charge in a rifle and bring that rifle with that charge into a tune by adjusting the tuner.
2) You can also install a tuner on a rifle muzzle anywhere, in any position, lock the tuner down and bring that rifle into a tune by adjusting the powder charge -- as Bart has shown with his post.
In my opinion neither of those tunes (method 1 or 2 ) will be the best sweetest tune for that rifle, barrel, tuner assembly. unless you just got lucky?? which dose happened
I find that if I use method 1 or 2 to tune a rifle my final tune may not be the tightest, smallest shooting tune that the rifle is capable of, it may tend to be spikey ??? (is that even a word???) and the rifle can, and will, loose it's tune very quickly if conditions change.
I find that if I take the time to find a barrels sweet spot and then set the tuner on top of that sweet spot my gun will hold it's tune thru a much wider window of climatic changes, and if it dose want to drift out of tune, it's just that, a drift out of tune, not a violent change in tune giving me a .3XX or .4XX group with no warning.
Gene[/QUOTE]
Gene,
We would all love to find such a wide tune window, the sweetest of the sweet spots. With several powder charges and thousands of tuner settings, not to mention a wide range of temperature, how do you find this sweetest spot without firing so many groups that the barrel is shot out before we find it? In particular, Bart used 20 shots to find the best powder charge at one tuner setting and temperature. If we do the same test for ten temperatures and just 100 tuner settings, that would be 20,000 shots to try all the combinations. That obviously isn't the answer.
Thanks,
Keith
2) You can also install a tuner on a rifle muzzle anywhere, in any position, lock the tuner down and bring that rifle into a tune by adjusting the powder charge -- as Bart has shown with his post.
In my opinion neither of those tunes (method 1 or 2 ) will be the best sweetest tune for that rifle, barrel, tuner assembly. unless you just got lucky?? which dose happened
I find that if I use method 1 or 2 to tune a rifle my final tune may not be the tightest, smallest shooting tune that the rifle is capable of, it may tend to be spikey ??? (is that even a word???) and the rifle can, and will, loose it's tune very quickly if conditions change.
I find that if I take the time to find a barrels sweet spot and then set the tuner on top of that sweet spot my gun will hold it's tune thru a much wider window of climatic changes, and if it dose want to drift out of tune, it's just that, a drift out of tune, not a violent change in tune giving me a .3XX or .4XX group with no warning.
Gene[/QUOTE]
Gene,
We would all love to find such a wide tune window, the sweetest of the sweet spots. With several powder charges and thousands of tuner settings, not to mention a wide range of temperature, how do you find this sweetest spot without firing so many groups that the barrel is shot out before we find it? In particular, Bart used 20 shots to find the best powder charge at one tuner setting and temperature. If we do the same test for ten temperatures and just 100 tuner settings, that would be 20,000 shots to try all the combinations. That obviously isn't the answer.
Thanks,
Keith
Last edited by a moderator:
M
mks
Guest
Mike,
I think most of us, myself included, assume that the mechanical properties of the steel in the barrel don't change much with temperature over the range of temperatures that we shoot. But your video shows that something is changing. A 20" barrel increases in length by a bit over 0.0001" for each degree F of temperature increase. Aside from adjusting for decreasing bullet exit time, part of the reason for moving the tuner in with increasing temperature could be to compensate for the growth in the barrel.
Cheers,
Keith