Just Talked To Scott Hunter Concerning Scoring System

jackie schmidt

jackie schmidt

New member
Our Gulf Coast Region Director, Scott Hunter, has been garnering opinion from shooters concerning the scoring system that the NBRSA should adopt if indeed it does institute Varmint for Score as a permanent Registered Format.

The general consensus seems to be that the best approach would be to keep the same scoring system that is in place, with one change. That being, the tie breaker will be the number of "wipeouts" instead of the Creedmore as used now.

In other words, if two shooters tie with 23 X's, the winner will be determined by how many wipeouts each achieved.

This in no way changes the basic system, 21 X's with no wipeouts still beats 20 X's with 20 wipeouts. Only in the event of a tie will the wipeouts count. Of course, the point score still trumps everything, so that "sword of Damocles" of shooting a nine, or worse, is still hanging over every shooters head.

For what it is worth, there is little support for changing the rules for the Rifles. The best bet in getting this passed by the BOD is to keep the standard Heavy Varmint classification for Varmint for Score.You try to push a whole lot of changes in the equipment list, you are going to end up with nothing...........jackie
 
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Wipe-out vs Creedmoor...I like it...:D
Since very few of us shoot our target bulls in numerical order, I think the wipe out as a tie-breaker is logical....
I secong the motion...:)


Eddie in Texas
 
The downside would be the time it takes to score the wipeouts. Otherwise, I think it's a good idea. It'd be interesting if some clubs could voluntarily score them both ways to see what it changes in terms of finishing order and to get feedback from the scorers and shooters while it's still on a trial basis.--Mike
 
Jackie
That sounds like an option. This way a guy who ends up 25 out of 30 can still go home and tell everybody he shot a perfect score but it allows the guy who actually shot the best a more fair chance at getting first place.

Ted
 
Ted,
Just for giggles, how 'bout looking back through the IBS VFS match records and see how many times 25 out of 30 shot a 250. BTW- Where do you compete?
Yep, that's what I thought.....

Rick
 
Why did the IBS adopt the Creedmore rather than the number of wipeouts as the tie breaker back when they instituted their Varmint for Score Rules. Just curious..........jackie
 
jackie schmidt said:
Why did the IBS adopt the Creedmore rather than the number of wipeouts as the tie breaker back when they instituted their Varmint for Score Rules. Just curious..........jackie
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Creedmore is not subjective. "Wipeouts" are. There is no defination of "wipeout."
If it ain't broke.....
 
FBecigneul said:
And then Creedmoor on wipe outs? If wipe outs are the same then first missed wipe out loses? Or earliest wipe out wins?
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Jackie,
I think your proposal is a good compromise that improves the tie-breaker without being too hard to swallow for those who don't want to change anything.

Francis,
I would suggest that if wipe outs are tied, then go to an extension of the current Creedmoor system: First point dropped, then first X dropped, then first wipe out dropped.
 
mks said:
Jackie,
I think your proposal is a good compromise that improves the tie-breaker without being too hard to swallow for those who don't want to change anything.

Francis,
I would suggest that if wipe outs are tied, then go to an extension of the current Creedmoor system: First point dropped, then first X dropped, then first wipe out dropped.
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Suggestions are just that, Suggestions! If it isn't written so as a rule, It doesn't much count. By the way how are Wipe outs going to be scored? Using the reticle? Sometimes you completely hit the dot, a clean hit and the black (or red) still stays on the paper. Putting a reticle over the hit shows a "wipe out" condition but there is still ink... Is this scored a "wipe out" or not? Better think this through before putting a bunch of useless chicken scratch in the book. If the NBRSA BoD doesn't get this right it will be a huge problem for scorers, and referees.

Paul
 
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Greyfox said:
Ted,
Just for giggles, how 'bout looking back through the IBS VFS match records and see how many times 25 out of 30 shot a 250.
Rick
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Just some of the larger matches that were easy to get numbers from: At the KY State match last year, 34 of 36 scored 250 at 100 yards. At the SC State match, 21 of 24. At the GA State match, 16 of 16. At the NC State match, 14 of 16. At the ME State match, 12 of 18. At the TN State match, 15 of 18.

87.5% of shooters in these matches shot 250, which corresponds to a little over 26 of 30.

Cheers,
Keith
 
mks said:
Just some of the larger matches that were easy to get numbers from: At the KY State match last year, 34 of 36 scored 250 at 100 yards. At the SC State match, 21 of 24. At the GA State match, 16 of 16. At the NC State match, 14 of 16. At the ME State match, 12 of 18. At the TN State match, 15 of 18.

87.5% of shooters in these matches shot 250, which corresponds to a little over 26 of 30.

Cheers,
Keith
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Which just goes to show you have "lay down conditions down there.

Paul
 
pbike said:
Suggestions are just that, Suggestions! If it isn't written so as a rule, It doesn't much count. By the way how are Wipe outs going to be scored? Using the reticle? Sometimes you completely hit the dot, a clean hit and the black (or red) still stays on the paper. Putting a reticle over the hit shows a "wipe out" condition but there is still ink... Is this scored a "wipe out" or not? Better think this through before putting a bunch of useless chicken scratch in the book. If the NBRSA BoD doesn't get this right it will be a huge problem for scorers, and referees.

Paul
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Paul,
Absolutely, the scoring method needs to be definable. IBS currently scores wipe outs for records, so the same method might be used. A reticle is used for points and X's, but I don't know how they score wipe outs. It is a legitimate concern, but I expect not insurmountable.

Cheers,
Keith
 
mks said:
Paul,
Absolutely, the scoring method needs to be definable. IBS currently scores wipe outs for records, so the same method might be used. A reticle is used for points and X's, but I don't know how they score wipe outs. It is a legitimate concern, but I expect not insurmountable.

Cheers,
Keith
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With the current IBS method, a hit is a hit and best edge is clearly definable either for a near hit or a near miss using the reticle. But take some, most, or all of the dot away and you lose that edge by which you are counting on for scoring. A reticle may have to be designed that lays over the ten ring and show the exact placement of where the dot used to be. And yet another reticle that lays over the bullet hole to show the bullets actual placement. This adds cost and trouble for the scorer and referees. Creedmore is a defined route as to who got the their x's first.
 
Interesting Keith,
I would not have thought it would have been anywhere near that many. But, then the conditions we've shot with of late have caused me to forget the good ones in the past.
Good job.

Rick
 
Why IBS uses Creedmore

jackie schmidt said:
Why did the IBS adopt the Creedmore rather than the number of wipeouts as the tie breaker back when they instituted their Varmint for Score Rules. Just curious..........jackie
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Jackie,
The VFS rules pre-date the use of wipeouts for any purpose by 13+ years. When Dennis Collins shot the first 25x target in 1995 the IBS Score Committee wisely decided 25x targets would not be all that common and in order to extend the useable life of the target as it existed at that point decided to use wipeouts only for the purpose of establishing records and did not then or any time since authorize the use of counting wipeouts as a means of scoring at range level but rather only at record committee level.

BTW to the best of my knowledge 25x ties have occurred 2 or 3 times at most in a few thousand aggregates fired so far, and I do not believe any ever actually survived the Score committee review. I do tend to agree counting wipeouts would better gauge which contestant is shooting better on a given day but it just puts a lot more work out there for the poor scorer. Since most of these scorers are volunteers make their job too hard they will quit doing it.


Dick
 
Creedmore Vs. WipeOut

What you are really saying is that 2 guys both shoot 23x's who wins, the guy that got his x's first without a missed x, or vs. the guys who's x's were better x's and had one hanging out in the nine that scored a ten on the first target?
 
pbike said:
With the current IBS method, a hit is a hit and best edge is clearly definable either for a near hit or a near miss using the reticle. But take some, most, or all of the dot away and you lose that edge by which you are counting on for scoring. A reticle may have to be designed that lays over the ten ring and show the exact placement of where the dot used to be. And yet another reticle that lays over the bullet hole to show the bullets actual placement.
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Yes, that would do it. I could be a simple as a transparent copy of the target.

pbike said:
This adds cost and trouble for the scorer and referees.
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Pretty small cost, but granted, a significant amount of time and trouble.

pbike said:
Creedmore is a defined route as to who got the their x's first.
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Both methods are definable, but Creedmoor is like flipping a coin, it has little to do with accuracy. What NBRSA gets for the extra time and trouble is a tie-breaker that is more related to accuracy.

Cheers,
Keith
 
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