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Edwin D
Guest
mike in co,
you are "RIGHT ON"!
you are "RIGHT ON"!
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DocDiesel
Guest
I never said one gun was better than the other but simply the increased cross sectional area is substantially greater in the .30 cal and that they should be in a seperate group in score. If everyone in the club likes score then so be it. They will probably all shoot 30 cal. The opposite is true of group. Since I rarely shoot score I thought that th first gun should be a 6ppc. In those areas that shoot score then the 30 cal is the gun. But how about where both of events co exist . Is it so hard to have two different classes ??
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Edwin D
Guest
mike in co,
did I mention; you are "RIGHT ON"!!
did I mention; you are "RIGHT ON"!!
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mwezell
Mike Ezell
As I previously posted, If I were limited to only one caliber to shoot both score and group, it'd be a 30.
What's wrong with shooting a 30 in group?
SGJennings
New member
Then what about the 17, 20, 22, the 6.5mm, the 6.8mm, the 7mm...what if some guy wants to shoot a 416 Barrett.
The ease of putting on a score shoot and the simplicity of the game is one of the things that makes it work so well, IMHO.
Here is an easy recipe for those with a 6PPC. It's what I did.
1. Take existing 6PPC, scope, etc.
2. Call Lester Bruno, Ron Hoehn, et al and get a 30 cal MV or HV 1:17 or 1:18 barrel
3. Get it chambered for 30 PPC or one of the 30s based on the Grendel case. If you have a lathe you could rebate the rims on the BR case.
4. Buy a 7/8s tungsten rod, chips or whatever, and get the gun balanced right.
5. Get a 30 expander and a 30 mandrel and prep cases as in the 6PPC. Use a tad more neck clearance.
6. Get some Berger 115s, powder that works with your case. Get custom bullets on order if desired.
7. Start with the bullet jammed as far as it will go and still extract.
8. Go tune as in the PPC. Expect it to be a tad different.
9. Practice shooting score. It's a tad different.
10. Have fun. That's what this is all about. People tend to forget.
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Interesting
I find it interesting that we (as some suggest) need to change the GAME to fit the Rifle/Caliber rather than just learning to shoot the game with what you have.
Terry M, and His son Jason Do Very Well with the 6ppc,at our last IBS registered Jason placing 3rd (out of 29 shooters) @ 100 and 5th @ 200, beating many 30's we even had a 22cal shooter that did very well shooting a 249 13x . These guys know how to shoot, read conditions and arent telling themseleves "I have no chance of winning cause I'm not shooting a 30". A tuned up 6ppc with a good "Driver", CAN compete!
The game is the game, shoot what you have and Maybe just have fun instead of all this pissin and moanin, and wanting to change everything.
I find it interesting that we (as some suggest) need to change the GAME to fit the Rifle/Caliber rather than just learning to shoot the game with what you have.
Terry M, and His son Jason Do Very Well with the 6ppc,at our last IBS registered Jason placing 3rd (out of 29 shooters) @ 100 and 5th @ 200, beating many 30's we even had a 22cal shooter that did very well shooting a 249 13x . These guys know how to shoot, read conditions and arent telling themseleves "I have no chance of winning cause I'm not shooting a 30". A tuned up 6ppc with a good "Driver", CAN compete!
The game is the game, shoot what you have and Maybe just have fun instead of all this pissin and moanin, and wanting to change everything.
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Nodak7mm
Guest
Okay, just an honest opinion from one who is very green in regards to the sport of BR. First, there are a lot of great people in this sport and I have met/corresponded 1/2 dozen individuals that go out of their way to "entertain" my questions, offer assistance, tooling and their time. I am also very positive that there are many, many more I have yet to meet, but I am geographically challenged to attend alot of matches. I am extremely lucky to have met someone who lives in my area that shoots competitivley at the upper levels of this sport and he always makes time to discuss my questions, show me things, offer me his time in his kick butt shop, etc... I hope to learn alot more from this guy...
I do understand the competiveness, the drive, the determination, the equipment obsession & dedication it takes to be running in the top levels of this sport as I have shot in another sport at the upper levels. I know I could have gotten to National levels, but it wasnt fun anymore and I walked away. And thats what important to bringing new folks in, is make it fun and keep it fun... Thats what I want when I go to a match. Make new friends, talk about rifles, ballistics, equipment, ideas & being around folks that have the same general interests, thats fun...
So in short, keep it fun and they will come...
Thaks for listening to my rambling babble.....
Rod
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Dick Grosbier
Club Coordinator
So Fritz,
I guess if you want to bring your sail boat to a speedboat race the rules must to be completely rewritten to make sure all boats have a reasonable shot at winning? This what you are preaching !
I shot score with a 6mm for 20 years, then when the name of the game changed with the trend to shooting 30's I adapted. I do not see what this has to do with new shooters into the game , you are assuming everybody will start shooting with a 6mm as a fact , if the new shooter is in an area that is dominated by registered Score shoots starting out with a 6mm is the error, not the way the rules are written.
Dick
I guess if you want to bring your sail boat to a speedboat race the rules must to be completely rewritten to make sure all boats have a reasonable shot at winning? This what you are preaching !
I shot score with a 6mm for 20 years, then when the name of the game changed with the trend to shooting 30's I adapted. I do not see what this has to do with new shooters into the game , you are assuming everybody will start shooting with a 6mm as a fact , if the new shooter is in an area that is dominated by registered Score shoots starting out with a 6mm is the error, not the way the rules are written.
Dick
jackie schmidt
New member
Jennings, I would only disagree with one item on your list. I tell shooters to tune the Rifle just like a group Rifle. When you have it shooting at a sub.200 agg level, you are ready to start hitting X's..........jackie
Fritz,
You mentioned in your first post...." I am NOT against shooting score with a 30 caliber rifle but it should be scored in a separate class. I had suggested this to Joe Krupa to present at the Eastern regional meeting but apparently it never came up." The correct place to submit such a request would be to have the director propose that change at the Nationals. No such proposal was made to me.
What I remember at our informal members' meeting at the Eastern Regionals at Holton last year is that you were the only person who voted against the NBRSA adopting VFS because you were "against the .30 BR". There were two abstentions and over 30 members voting for me to cast the Region's vote in favor of adding the class to the hunter competitons. I'm not sure what being "against the .30 BR" really means, but it is obvious that a lot of good shooting has been done with this cartridge in both group and score. It is also obvious that you must have "come over to the dark side" and are now shooting a .30 BR. You should consider going to the IBS Score Nationals at Holton in two weeks.
Actually, there was much discussion up to and during the Director's meeting in St. Louis at the Nationals last year about revamping the scoring system, but the decision was made to not complicate the issue and thus doom the proposal to failure. The decision was to have a one-year trial of of VFS shot under the hunter competition rules and then see where it goes from there. There is at least one proposal for this year's Director's meeting to make that permanent under the existing rules. A discussion of what transpired in the National Director's meeting at St. Louis took place at our annual Eastern region members' meeting at Cabela's last November. Had you been there, you could have participated in that discussion.
That being said, I have seen 6 PPC's beat .30's and .30's beat 6 PPC's at both group and score matches. My read is that both are fine cartridges and when the gun is tuned in the right hands, anything can happen. I suspect that many ranges are having difficulty accurately measuring groups made by other-than-6mm bullets. And when targets are beginning to be submitted for world records that determine whether we have a durable process across the sport. Anyone who has measured groups knows that it is harder to accurately measure a small group (say a 100-yard zero) than it is to measure a larger (say 200-yard) group. And a .30-caliber zero is EFFECTIVELY smaller than a 6 mm zero.
When I started the 6 PPC was the then-current king of the hill for the shooting around where I competed. It was what my gunsmith Dwight Scott recommened, I've kind of stuck with it and I have done okay with it. I have yet to get any of my .30's to work in the same manner, and I know that I am missing something there. Choosing a caliber is a systems choice. That system includes what bullet and what reamer and what dies and what powder, as well as what venure that you compete in. And today there are quite a few more 6 PPC's shooting in group, so the "conventional wisdom" surrounding how to tune them and what components to use is more wide spread. Plus, it is still difficult to get great .30 bullets in quantity, although there is more today than we had in the recent past.
I view today the discussion surrounding which is the better caliber akin to Thomas Aguinas asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
You mentioned in your first post...." I am NOT against shooting score with a 30 caliber rifle but it should be scored in a separate class. I had suggested this to Joe Krupa to present at the Eastern regional meeting but apparently it never came up." The correct place to submit such a request would be to have the director propose that change at the Nationals. No such proposal was made to me.
What I remember at our informal members' meeting at the Eastern Regionals at Holton last year is that you were the only person who voted against the NBRSA adopting VFS because you were "against the .30 BR". There were two abstentions and over 30 members voting for me to cast the Region's vote in favor of adding the class to the hunter competitons. I'm not sure what being "against the .30 BR" really means, but it is obvious that a lot of good shooting has been done with this cartridge in both group and score. It is also obvious that you must have "come over to the dark side" and are now shooting a .30 BR. You should consider going to the IBS Score Nationals at Holton in two weeks.
Actually, there was much discussion up to and during the Director's meeting in St. Louis at the Nationals last year about revamping the scoring system, but the decision was made to not complicate the issue and thus doom the proposal to failure. The decision was to have a one-year trial of of VFS shot under the hunter competition rules and then see where it goes from there. There is at least one proposal for this year's Director's meeting to make that permanent under the existing rules. A discussion of what transpired in the National Director's meeting at St. Louis took place at our annual Eastern region members' meeting at Cabela's last November. Had you been there, you could have participated in that discussion.
That being said, I have seen 6 PPC's beat .30's and .30's beat 6 PPC's at both group and score matches. My read is that both are fine cartridges and when the gun is tuned in the right hands, anything can happen. I suspect that many ranges are having difficulty accurately measuring groups made by other-than-6mm bullets. And when targets are beginning to be submitted for world records that determine whether we have a durable process across the sport. Anyone who has measured groups knows that it is harder to accurately measure a small group (say a 100-yard zero) than it is to measure a larger (say 200-yard) group. And a .30-caliber zero is EFFECTIVELY smaller than a 6 mm zero.
When I started the 6 PPC was the then-current king of the hill for the shooting around where I competed. It was what my gunsmith Dwight Scott recommened, I've kind of stuck with it and I have done okay with it. I have yet to get any of my .30's to work in the same manner, and I know that I am missing something there. Choosing a caliber is a systems choice. That system includes what bullet and what reamer and what dies and what powder, as well as what venure that you compete in. And today there are quite a few more 6 PPC's shooting in group, so the "conventional wisdom" surrounding how to tune them and what components to use is more wide spread. Plus, it is still difficult to get great .30 bullets in quantity, although there is more today than we had in the recent past.
I view today the discussion surrounding which is the better caliber akin to Thomas Aguinas asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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jackie schmidt
New member
As a reminder about scoring, the Gulf Coast Region will entertain only ONE CHANGE in the way things are done at present.That being, the final tie breaker will be the number of total wipeouts rather than the current Creedmore.
This in no way affects the scoring, a "250 zero X" will still beat a "249 24 X". It simply means that in the event of a tie in score and X count, the shooter who actually comes closest to the center of the target the most times will be awarded the higher standing...........jackie
This in no way affects the scoring, a "250 zero X" will still beat a "249 24 X". It simply means that in the event of a tie in score and X count, the shooter who actually comes closest to the center of the target the most times will be awarded the higher standing...........jackie
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DocDiesel
Guest
Francis I've spent a part of my life splitting hairs in a grinding room and then having to measure stuff to within a few .0001" with optical devices ( shadow graphs/optical comparators). I don't see a big issue with measuring a target but hey, that's just me.
All of a sudden we have gone to group matches when the from the start I stated score matches. Sorry gents as a pediatric surgeon for 35 years I got used to working with children. I won't post again.
SGJennings
New member
I think that the 30BR/4198 combination has characteristics that are qualify as "a tad different". Or do you use the same 0.X grains of powder per Y degrees F in temperature (or density altitude for those folks) that you do with N133 in the 6PPC?
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LARRY FEUSSE
New member
Fritz,
I feel a bit responsible for some of the disapointment you are feeling. I am the guy who generally cleans up at most of the score matches in our area, and I usually use a 30. I really have very little mercy for the other competators, because I know if the tables were turned, they would do the same. If you have something that is working well, you usually continue to use it. Or, what's that saying they have in Texas? "If you got it, flaunt it!" I am proud to say that 3 years ago, with my 30 BR I was able to shoot the smallest 100 yd. HV agg. in the Eastern Region, and that last year, with my 30 GR, I was able to shoot the smallest 100 yd. agg. again in the Eastern Region, but this time in the LV class. The thing is, when I go to a match, the one person there that I really want to beat, is MYSELF!!! I am always trying to improve my own performance, not influence someone elses.
I don't consider myself any more gifted than the next guy when it comes to shooting ability. However I spend all my time and most of my money working on improving myself in this sport. I absolutely love it! When I go to a match I am going to a private campground, with very few kids, the camping is cheep, all my friends are there (and that includes you), and I get to shoot guns too! What could be better. On the other hand I am considered quite an experimenter. I have found a few things that work. What most people don't see is all the stuff I have tried that does not work. Another thing to consider is PRACTICE. Joe Krupa told me of a comment that Dwight Scott made to him one time. It went something like this, "Benchrest shooting is about like any other sport that has a human element involved, in order to improve the human element, the human has to practice in order to improve his skills."
Fritz, at one time I, like you, was real unhappy about the way in which one of the classes of shooting was set up. After beating my head against the wall, I came to the conclusion that the rules were not going to change, and I should quit destroying my own joy, and just compete within the rules that exist, the same rules that applied to everyone. Now I am happy again. I don"t always win, but like I said, I love this sport. What other sport is there that has the great quality of people that this sport has, yourself included. Please don't give up on us!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A side note to Jackie. I shoot competative archery in the winter. In archery we us a tie breaker method called the "inside out" shots. This same concept could be used as a more fair method of determining tie breakers than the wipe out system that is common to us. It would work like this for us. Simply count the number of shots in which the bullet is completely inside the 10 ring without touching the 10 ring at all. In this way the 6MM would actually have the advantage in tie breakers only, because the 6mm bullet takes up the least amount of space inside the 10 ring.
Sincerely,
Larry
I feel a bit responsible for some of the disapointment you are feeling. I am the guy who generally cleans up at most of the score matches in our area, and I usually use a 30. I really have very little mercy for the other competators, because I know if the tables were turned, they would do the same. If you have something that is working well, you usually continue to use it. Or, what's that saying they have in Texas? "If you got it, flaunt it!" I am proud to say that 3 years ago, with my 30 BR I was able to shoot the smallest 100 yd. HV agg. in the Eastern Region, and that last year, with my 30 GR, I was able to shoot the smallest 100 yd. agg. again in the Eastern Region, but this time in the LV class. The thing is, when I go to a match, the one person there that I really want to beat, is MYSELF!!! I am always trying to improve my own performance, not influence someone elses.
I don't consider myself any more gifted than the next guy when it comes to shooting ability. However I spend all my time and most of my money working on improving myself in this sport. I absolutely love it! When I go to a match I am going to a private campground, with very few kids, the camping is cheep, all my friends are there (and that includes you), and I get to shoot guns too! What could be better. On the other hand I am considered quite an experimenter. I have found a few things that work. What most people don't see is all the stuff I have tried that does not work. Another thing to consider is PRACTICE. Joe Krupa told me of a comment that Dwight Scott made to him one time. It went something like this, "Benchrest shooting is about like any other sport that has a human element involved, in order to improve the human element, the human has to practice in order to improve his skills."
Fritz, at one time I, like you, was real unhappy about the way in which one of the classes of shooting was set up. After beating my head against the wall, I came to the conclusion that the rules were not going to change, and I should quit destroying my own joy, and just compete within the rules that exist, the same rules that applied to everyone. Now I am happy again. I don"t always win, but like I said, I love this sport. What other sport is there that has the great quality of people that this sport has, yourself included. Please don't give up on us!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A side note to Jackie. I shoot competative archery in the winter. In archery we us a tie breaker method called the "inside out" shots. This same concept could be used as a more fair method of determining tie breakers than the wipe out system that is common to us. It would work like this for us. Simply count the number of shots in which the bullet is completely inside the 10 ring without touching the 10 ring at all. In this way the 6MM would actually have the advantage in tie breakers only, because the 6mm bullet takes up the least amount of space inside the 10 ring.
Sincerely,
Larry
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SGJennings
New member
Seems like you skipped "How To Get Along With Others 101" on the way to your M.D.
Greg J. - Just a poor, ignorant engineer
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I wasn't kidding when I said you were beating your head against the wall. It amazes me that so many 30 shooters complain when you propose giving smaller bores their own class but that's the way it is. A smaller bore class would have no effect on VFS but that fact doesn't stop the unimaginative from fighting the proposed new class.
Doc, All the BS is why I deleted my thread. It's easy to do
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Edwin D
Guest
SGJennings,
I did not know we had to post SOME of our educational credentials; retired combat assault helicopter pilot with a law degree.
I did not know we had to post SOME of our educational credentials; retired combat assault helicopter pilot with a law degree.