IR5050 Progress report

Doug said:
Adding more Classes just undermines the current IR50/50.

Unlimited Sporter:
Not sure what the point is in having an Unlimited Sporter Class?? (ARA Motivated?)
If it is because the Majority want a more powerful scope than just change the current Sporter Class to allow any power scope!

Factory Class:
If there is enough interest then go for it but my guess is that there will not be a way to regulate what is "Factory" and what isn't!
If a Club wants to hold & regulate a factory class then by all means they should but in my mind it should not be part of IR50/50.

Just My Two Cents
Doug
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Unfortunately, what that seems to happening Doug, is that the guys that B**** about not being able to shoot 250's at random with the Sporter class, now get their way. The guys that forgot the class is supposed to hard.
Probably the same guys that don't go anywhere where there is actual wind.
Did we also not have a factory class that had about zero interest.
Lots of changes right out of the box.
Apparently tradition is officially on the back burner.
Wilbur, had a true appreciation for what came before him and made a genuine effort to gain information from many areas of the organization.
 
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When I hear guys complain about not being able to see well enough to shoot the sporter well, I want to ask, "Can you see your crosshairs? Can you see the heavy black ring? Cause that's all any of us can see at 6 or 6.5X. Do they think anyone else can see the X or the ten ring? No!!!! We can't. All we do is see the heavy black rings and try to center the crosshairs on it and if a hold-off is needed we all just sorta guess. That's the challenge, that's the fun of sporter! Oh well, I guess some folks just like things nice and easy. What was it Tina Turner said - - - .
 
Ted Derivan said:
The 3 that shoot traditional sporter (back tees) are scored as 1,2,3; then the factory sporter is 4,5,6; and the UL Sporter 7,8,9. Regardless of the overall scores the UL sporter gets handicapped and the traditional Sporter benefits from the more challenging match.

This way all 9 shooters are credited for list points, but the 6.5 scoped shooter is the only one that can win a sporter match or the 3 gun agg. The others are still part of the match, and may shoot very well but are not overly rewarded for the different equipment used.

If clubs want to hold UL Sporter matches that could be an option, also we could make a Factory and UL Sporter Scoreline. All of this would hopefully encourage newer shooters to get better and possibly make the investment in a custom sporter, while keeping as many existing shooters still actively shooting a 6.5 power Sporter without being penalized by shooting against higher power UL scoped Sporter.

The class requirements still need to be created but this is one scoring option that could help level the playing field for all Sporter shooters.

Ted,
I don't think that would be fair to the occasional factory sporter that does better than the custom. I wouldn't like taking 4th place points because someone shot poorer but has spent more money? That wouldn't seem right.

A separate factory class scoreline seems like a good idea however what if a new shooter has a factory sporter & a heavy custom? How would the list points work there? I suppose they could have their own Factory sporter scoreline but it would likely kill their 3-gun agg. But they should realize that going into it.

I wonder how many the IR50 would gain by increasing scope power on the sporters? I fear that it may lose more by doing so as most are pretty passionate about how it is now. Its what I like. But its all I have competed in too.

Wayne, this sporter thing might be your toughest task of all!
Keith
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Sporter

I feel the 250 has become too attainable. Shooters feel that since they can shoot 250's in thier 10.5 and 13.5 that they should able to shoot a 250 as frequently in their sporter shooting. I hope this isn't becoming a situation where a few whiners feel they are "ENTITLED" to a 250 in sporter because other shooters can do it and they are going to carry on until they get their way. After all every dog has or had their day. As a freind of mine says, "if you want a 250 just shoot better".

The problem may not be in the sporter class at all, maybe it is in the 10.5 and 13.5 pound class, too much scopage. Let's have a 250 in any class be something that is truely awesome no matter who shoots it. When I used to hunt I would always say to myself, "I would much rather shoot one wild bird all season than 50 stocked birds". The 250 is something that should be a great accomplishmnet, just like harvesting that one wild bird. Isn't it fun to shoot a match where no 250's were shot? It makes everyone feel that they may have a chance of winning. I THINK THE AGG'S ARE TOO HIGH! With the great smithing and ammo of today we should step up and handycap ourselves. 36 power in unlimited only or maybe fewer wind flags allowed down range (Sorry Ray!). Let's just make it more interesting! These would be simple changes that I believe would make our wonderful sport more challanging and competative for the average Joe.

This was my first year shooting 50/50 so please take it easy on me in your responses. I LIKE THE SPORTER THE WAY IT IS. I thought that some insight from a new shooter could be helpful. Thank you for your time.

Best to all,
William Colbert
The newest 50/50 Match Director, Country Pond Fish and Game, Newton NH
 
The 3-gun sporter class isn't going to change. The only change to the sporter class (if I understand my conversation with Wayne correct) is to go on the Unlimited side and add a Unlimited sporter match. This would not change anything other than adding a new class on the Unlimited side. There would be some changes made to the weight (allow more weight) so you could use a higher power scope. Stock configuration would stay the same. This is still in the thinking stages but the 3-gun sporter will stand as is. Wayne has listed his e-mail address and phone number for anyone who would like to discuss anything and everything pertaining to IR-50/50 advancement. Give him a call, give him a chance.

Jim
 
Why don't you boys

Just shoot an ARA sporter match and an ARA unlimited match in conjunction with your traditional 3 gun matches and then everyone will have a class to shoot and you wont mess with your list points? The only thing this does not cover is the factory match and that will always be the hard one, as in racing or any other sport. Claiming races were the simplest answer there but no one wants to sell his classic gun for a claiming price. I'll let you all figure that one out.....
 
Hi William, thanks for your thoughts, but getting us to accept new rules to basically put a restrictor on accuracy is a tough sell. The goal of benchrest is to reach the pinnacle of accuracy possible. This means that as we progress in our equipment, ammo and skills that the scores will get better and more people will shoot 250s. At this point, it's all about the X count to determine the winner in most matches. I see that as a good thing. If the 250 is becoming easier to shoot, its because we've been successful in advancing rimfire accuracy with our BR shooting organizations. The only way to shoot fewer 250s that wouldn't result in taking a step backward in accuracy would be to change the target and to make the 10 ring smaller. This would require the archiving of all current IR50/50 records and would essentially be creating another BR game. It could be done, but wouldn't be IR50/50 as we know it.

I think there could be a way to integrate the factory rifles into the existing classes by making certain exceptions for factory rifles. Offered for discussion purposes: Let's say we allow factory sporter rifles to compete in the existing sporter class by relaxing the weight restriction on factory rifles because so many factory rifles won't make the 7.5 lb limit with a regularly encountered scope. We could also relax the 6.5X scope restriction for factory rifles, thereby giving those who want to shoot a higher magnification in sporter an option. They could just shoot a factory rifle. The factory shooters would then shoot for the sporter class win and we could have a separate acknowledgement for the highest score by a factory shooter. Have the match director note on their reports the rifles that are factory and note the mfg and model #. IR50/50 can then set up and establish records for factory rifles. I doubt most custom sporter shooters would change to a factory rifle to attain the "advantages" of shooting a heavier rifle or higher magnification. And if a certain factory rifle is produced that can compete, why everyone would just gravitate to it and shoot it. It could work like this: A sporter is a custom rifle, with a magazine capable of holding at least 2 rounds, weighing less than 7.5 lbs with a scope of 6.5X or less, or, a stock factory produced rifle, having a magazine capable of holding at least 2 rounds, weighing less than 8.5 lbs with a scope set at 16X or less. Factory rifles would be rifles allowed to have their factory triggers adjusted and be bedded by a gunsmith.

By integrating factory rifles into our regular classes, we could increase participation, give the factory rifle shooters certain relaxed "advantages" and allow them to increase the points available in the sporter class (I would expect most factory rifles will be of the sporter configuration). No one shooting a custom sporter with a 6.5X should feel threatened because of the level of accuracy these rifles are able to achieve and the factory shooting beginner will have advantage of having a heavier rifle and more magnification. While these factory rifles may still not be competitive with the custom sporters, they will have the challenge of competing with other factory rifle shooters across the country for recognition and the new factory records. You might even have shooters who have abandoned their custom sporters for being either non-competitive or for the magnification restriction, take up the factory sporter with the higher scope magnification limit for the chance of establishing a factory world record. This would mean that a club wouldn't have to have separate relays or matches specifically for factory rifle matches.

Regarding changing the sporter class to allow unlimited scope because certain shooters can no longer see well enough to use a 6.5X scope. If we want to be taken seriously as a sport, we can't be relaxing or changing the rules to accommodate those whose physical abilities are waning. This would be akin to an aging marathoner asking the Olympic Committee to shorten the race because he couldn't run 26.2 miles anymore. Anyone in every sport knows that over time skills and ability may/will diminish. C'est la vie.
 
Sounds pretty good

Geez Bill, that all sounds pretty good.
Jim, I have the utmost confidence in Wayne & all he's doing. What I like best is an open line of communication & wanting to hear from others.That's nice!
I wonder if there could be a poll or something of the like that could be set up so we could see how the majority feels. Not a lot of people post but might be willing to share an opinion in a poll??
Bare with us Wayne. Its winter & there isn't much else going on. At least not up north!
Keith
 
yeah, not much going on this weekend

just that pesky little ARA Nationals indoor. Probably not more than one or two of the IR Unlimited guys at that.......
 
linekin said:
Geez Bill, that all sounds pretty good.
Jim, I have the utmost confidence in Wayne & all he's doing. What I like best is an open line of communication & wanting to hear from others.That's nice!
I wonder if there could be a poll or something of the like that could be set up so we could see how the majority feels. Not a lot of people post but might be willing to share an opinion in a poll??
Bare with us Wayne. Its winter & there isn't much else going on. At least not up north!
Keith
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Keith, the factory rifle could even be integrated into the 10.5 and 13.5 classes, not by making any weight or obviously scope magnification adjustments, but by simply establishing and noting a factory winner and by keeping additional records for those shooting stock factory rifles that won't otherwise meet the factory sporter requirements. I'm thinking specifically folks shooting stock Cooper TRPs, Annies, 52s 40Xs etc. Factory equipment requirements would have to meet conditions like having the original barrel, stock and trigger. It might be fun and interesting to see what the top factory rifles would be and it just might be incentive for some mfg's to either get in the game or improve on their products to get the bragging rights of being the world record holder for a factory rimfire rifle.
 
OK Guys,
I made the statement that a good discussion will either create excitement or an argument. I will not be making any changes in the next year as far as new classes or any other fundamental of IR50/50. What I have done already is clear up some gray areas in the rules that concern sportsmanship , Indoor and Outdoor range reguirements and a few typos etc.
Everything else is simply out there to see if it will help or harm our sport. IR50/50 is unique, I believe it to be the most challenging rimfire competition out there. I do not intend to make it easier.
My goals for next year are simply to get the new WebSite up and going, fix the problems we have had with score postings, insure that everyone recieves recognition to include hats, jackets etc., do whatever I can to increase the number of shooters, ranges and states participating in IR50/50 and make IR50/50 matches more efficient and enjoyable.
I will be the first to say that this will not be easy. Kay and Anna (with help from Doug and Rachel) deal with the current WebSite issues every day. We did not invest our time and money to sit by and watch IR50/50 die. All we ask is that you "the shooters and rangemasters" keep an open mind about what each of us can do to support and encourage each other. I can do my best to steer the ship, but I will need everyone's help to make this work.
As soon as possible I want to have these type of discussions on the New WebSite where the IR50/50 "family" can advise, suggest and comment on IR50/50, however; as the saying goes the buck stops here and final decisions must be made by me.
Remember, a personal email or conversation with me is always possible. I have not hidden my contact info. I will be more than happy to discuss any issue(s) you may have and promise to listen with an open mind. I do not plan on dealing with problems or individuals on a public forum. Most of the time, it will only create controversy.
Kay, Anna and I would like to wish all the Rimfire Community a Merry Chrismas and a Happy New Year,
Wayne Wills
 
Wilbur said:
Factory class! What exactly is a factory class rifle?
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Wilbur Scary - as far as I know there will not such a class in IR50/50 in the near future!

Thanks Wayne for your post that there will no be any changes in IR50/50 for the Coming Year !! :D
 
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This is what we do

Wilbur said:
Factory class! What exactly is a factory class rifle?
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I shoot with a group of people almost every week. The rules we use are, the action and the barrel must be OEM, Remington, Anschutz, Winchester...... no tuners, no mechanical rest. Bi-pods and sand bags only. Anything else goes, triggers, scopes, ammo, bedded stocks, aftermarket stocks.

We also shoot for a little money to make it interesting. We came up with a way to make the pay outs to attract new shooters. We shoot two targets as the main event. We pay high score per row, best center bull per row, high score per target and most combined Xs in both targets. This way everybody has a chance to win something and usually do. We usually have between 8-15 shooters each week. We shoot a variety of targets IR, ARA,PSL and USBR as long as they have 5 bulls per row and 5 rows. Hardly ever have any complaints, you don't need a top notch rifle or killer ammo to compete.

George
 
Always ends up being an equipment race

The Factory Class has been tried many times and some orgs still provide for one. Unless it is an event such as the one described above, there is no point in it, from my experience. The shooting sports are not for folks on a budget, from what I have seen since the middle 80's anyway. I began Benchrest back then at a club with "Factory" rifles. We quickly turned into an equipment race. I remember Joe Haller running some Factory class matches in Texas during the winter way back. I think he may have limited the rifles to a dollar amount with a claiming rule and I seem to recall having to use ammo sold at the shoot but could be wrong on that score. At any rate, the fellow with the most money will keep buying rifles until he finds one that will win. Not for lads on a budget. Anyone who just would like to "try It" can always just show up and try it with his ole squirrel gun any time. I have had a few do that over the past three years. They either buy competitive equipment for the discipline or dwindle out after a couple of matches. For me, the only fun rifle is an accurate rifle.

Pete
 
Bob P said:
Wayne, I shoot IR50/50 at Fred's Rimfire Ridge in Ar. I am like a lot of people that can no longer make out the rings on the Target with a 6.5 power scope. Maybe a change in the Power and Restrict the tube diameter to 1" and increase weight to 8.0# for the increase in scope weight might help create one class of sporter instead of two. It take so much time to add another class to a days shoot. Just for thought. I like others was thinking about giving up on sporter class because I cant see the target any more for it hurts my overall Ag.
I hope you the best with the new IR50/50.
Bob
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Bob,

I don't know anybody that can see the rings thru a sporter scope. You are not alone. Ray Price always used to say he couldn't see good enough to shoot a sporter. Usually when he complained, he won the match. Guess you don't really have to see much to win. Besides, how well are those zeros going to average into your agg when you don't shoot?

Ken Henderson
 
Ken, what have i been missing? I have'nt seen those rings in 20 years. For what its worth, you dont actually need the rings, you bisect the big black outer rings.
Bob, may i ask what kind of scope is on your sporter?
 
tim said:
Ken, what have i been missing? I have'nt seen those rings in 20 years. For what its worth, you dont actually need the rings, you bisect the big black outer rings.
Bob, may i ask what kind of scope is on your sporter?
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Leupold Target VX-2 6-18 with target dot Tape down at 6.5 power. I try to do the same with the black ring.
 
While thats a fine scope, i would tell you to look through any of the latest generation optics using 30 MM tubes and side focus. They offer big improvements in clarity for older eyes and a lot less eye fatigue.
 
"Unless it is an event such as the one described above, there is no point in it, from my experience. The shooting sports are not for folks on a budget"

I take offense to anyone with that way of thinking. Since when does/has the shooting sport become limited to only those whose pocket can afford it. I truly hope that comment was in jest. I for one while relatively new to the sport (tho I did compete many yrs ago) have to wonder why it has gotten so overly expensive to compete. You have pretty much taken any real shooting skill's out of the game and mechanized it to the point that one has to have the funds to compete more so that actual shooting skills. Really,just how hard is it to squeeze off a round when all you have is the ability to mechanically do everything else to direct your rifle to a POI ,other than judge the wind. If you really want to get back to skillful shooting then perhaps remove all mechanical aspects of the game other than the wind flags and scope and see how well you fare against others.(perhaps the reason it got that expensive in the 1st place was to dissuade better shooters anyways) That exact above statement and mindset is exactly why the sport will not continue to draw in new shooters as the older fade out. A factory class is a perfect example of how to introduce and keep shooters of all skill sets and incomes in the game. It's not like yachting or polo for gods sake it's the sport not of "kings and queens" but of the common man with adequate skills acquired thru yrs of experience,or at least it was!!!!

Just my 2 cents on that subject
 
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