Intelligent discussion on primer substitution

H

haze10

Guest
I'd like to ask a question but since it is controversial I ask that we keep it on a professional level.

I want to load 223 but can not find small rifle primers anywhere. But I have plenty of small magnum pistol primers. Federal 200M to be exact.

I know the pistol primers have softer and/or thinner metal than rifle primers, and that rifles primers are thicker and designed for higher pressures. But could the use of magnum small pistol primers be acceptable in 223 with some precautions.

Checking the Hogdon load data for 357 magnum pistol I see max pressure loads listed up to 42,900cup. The starting loads for 69gr 223Rem list pressure in the 37,400cup for a variety of powders. Max load pressures for the 223Rem are in the 49,000cup range (a few are higher but I'm looking at averages).

Based on this - would there be a great risk to substitute the magnum pistol in the 223Rem? The starting pressures for 223Rem are less than max loadings for 357mag pressures, and even going to a max 223 load, pressure is only 15% higher than max 357 loads. I would think Federal is designing their primers with greater than 15% safety margin.

I realize the rifle is going to put a harder strike into the primer, but is it really that much difference than a Ruger Blackhawk pistol? Questioning the probability of primer piercing.

OK, now remember I am asking first, and that I am trying to make a reasonable decision before attempting this. So no burning please.
 
NO, don't even think about it! I know someone who used pistol primers by mistake in a rifle,,,,,,, pierced everyone he shot,,,,,,,,,,,

the wind is my friend,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

DD

DD
 
will not work

I did this by mistake all blew out and ruined the brass with 26g varget and 70g bergers
 
I wonder why it didn't work. You would think the magnum pistol primers would take at least 60K cup before rupturing. I wonder if it is just the depth of the hammer strike.
 
I noticed,

after purchasing a 45 cal Sub-machine gun and reloading for it that Pistol Primers are not as thick as rifle primers; don't know why though. Is there a source one could go to to be able to read an explanation of how primers differ?
 
CCI Primers

Fellow shooter at the last HBR match was using CCI mag pistol primer in his 30x47 with 6.5x47 Lapua brass. Told me that at a match he went to in Lewiston, Idaho he talked to a fellow that worked at the CCI plant. Small rifle 400 and Small mag pistol 550 come from the same line , same cup, same primer mixture. RANDY
 
Primers

The people who make the things say do not do it.

This does make me wonder, though. I was reading an article on the big S&W 450 what ever, and it has a operating pressure of 60,000 psi.

Do these things use Rifle Primers??.............jackie
 
Isn't it funny how times change? It was some years ago that Federal made the claim that the small rifle primer for BR were the magnum primer mix. The magnum pistol primer (small) were the same and could be substituted.

I do know one thing for darn sure, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to measure cup thickness. The other thing about this, when you switch components, do you start at your old load? Or, do you start low and work up?

How is it we let the window open and let common since fly out the window?:confused:
 
When changing any componant of a load one should start from scratch and work up carefully. Reloading 101. RANDY
 
Magnums

I have always thought Magnum primers basically had thicker cups and nothing else. I have never seen a primer SO EXPLOSIVE that it would drive a bullet out the barrel, have any of you?

I shot a Wolf SR Magnum the other day here in the house pointed into the commode in the bathroom. It was just a poof, which I suspected. Is this another area where we worry needlessly about something miniscule?
 
At one time I bought Remington 7.62X39 brass not realizing they used small primers. The only SP primers I had where CCI 550. They worked without any problems, in fact better than Winchester brass with WLR primers. Considerable pressure difference than .223 but keeping that in mind they will work.

D R
 
Pete Wass said:
I have always thought Magnum primers basically had thicker cups and nothing else. I have never seen a primer SO EXPLOSIVE that it would drive a bullet out the barrel, have any of you?

I shot a Wolf SR Magnum the other day here in the house pointed into the commode in the bathroom. It was just a poof, which I suspected. Is this another area where we worry needlessly about something miniscule?
Click to expand...

Yes and No! I have had 44 Mag, using CCI 450 primers lodge a 240 gr. plated bullet in the bore far enough to engrave about 1/4 inch. I've also had a bullet stay in the case, when I pulled it apart, the base was just black. Was the difference the primer, the crimp or just a coincident? Smokeless powder is a wonderful thing but it needs to be in the cartridge. :eek:

D R
 
I have some old Federal 200 primers that I got from someone a long time ago in a trade. They're labeled as SR primers. Now Fed 200's are labeled as small pistol magnum primers. That being said I tried some of them in .357 Mag loads that were developed by Western Powders using Fed 200's. The primers were hammered flat with a load that was not listed as max. CCI 550's even with the max charge were still well rounded on the edges.

I'd hate to use Fed 200's in a high pressure rifle load since the ones I have could barely take a 30-35 kpsi revolver load, and like I say they're shown as SR primers per the sleeve label.
 
I don't know if any of you folks remember the old Speer plastic bullets and cases, used for indoor target practice? You simply inserted the small primer in the base of the case by pressing on a flat surface and pushing the plastic black bullet in place? Most of the one I saw were for .38 spl.

The point is that by varying different primer makes of small pistol and small rifle primers you would get all different shapes of pressure signs with the same projectile. Some flat like from high pressure, some normal, some cratered. Some would even back out of the pocket. All indicated different pressures.
 
Haze, if I were you, I would reduce the loads down to starting level, load one a try it. Worst thing that will happen is it blanks. Be sure to get that little disc out if it does. If it blanks, you're done, it's over.

If it doesn't, start going up. I doubt you would be able to achieve full house loads, but to shoot, you may have to live with reduced loads.

I know this is not what everyone says to do. I'm saying this is what I would do, you do as you feel proper. But I would try it.
 
Ditto

Wayne Shaw said:
Haze, if I were you, I would reduce the loads down to starting level, load one a try it. Worst thing that will happen is it blanks. Be sure to get that little disc out if it does. If it blanks, you're done, it's over.

If it doesn't, start going up. I doubt you would be able to achieve full house loads, but to shoot, you may have to live with reduced loads.

I know this is not what everyone says to do. I'm saying this is what I would do, you do as you feel proper. But I would try it.
Click to expand...

I agree 200%
 
Well, that was my logic to start. Obviously, I would only be loading to the low end and not pushing it. I think one thing to do first to to try to rip a SPPM and a SRP apart, crush the cup, and see if I can measure the thickness.
 
I used the .357 magnum case volume as a proxy for reduced load development in the .223 Remington.

Magnum primers will work in the following

Federal Brass FL sized trimmed to specifications.

5.2grains Alliant Unique

55gr fmjbt 2.255"OAL
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top