In your opinion whats killing the group game

I'm a new shooter...

I've only attended one registered match.

If you want to retain new shooters, then make them feel welcome and go out of your way to help the little fish. The guys I met were nice enough, but for the most part I was treated like background noise. I pretty much went it alone for the four days I was there. I held my own okay. I was proud of my finish, but could have benefited greatly from a little guidance.

New shooters need help with all things involved at a match from simple loading bench technique, to setting flags to the actual tuning of the gun. You were a new shooter at one time yourself. Somebody probably helped you. Return the favor and pay it forward. Lip service doesn't count.
 
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jimmymac said:
I've only attended one registered match.

If you want to retain new shooters, then make them feel welcome and go out of your way to help the little fish. The guys I met were nice enough, but for the most part I was treated like background noise. I pretty much went it alone for the four days I was there. I held my own okay. I was proud of my finish, but could have benefited greatly from a little guidance.

New shooters need help with all things involved at a match from simple loading bench technique, to setting flags to the actual tuning of the gun. You were a new shooter at one time yourself. Somebody probably helped you. Return the favor and pay it forward. Lip service doesn't count.
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Very well said.
 
jimmymac said:
I've only attended one registered match.

If you want to retain new shooters, then make them feel welcome and go out of your way to help the little fish. The guys I met were nice enough, but for the most part I was treated like background noise. I pretty much went it alone for the four days I was there. I held my own okay. I was proud of my finish, but could have benefited greatly from a little guidance.

New shooters need help with all things involved at a match from simple loading bench technique, to setting flags to the actual tuning of the gun. You were a new shooter at one time yourself. Somebody probably helped you. Return the favor and pay it forward. Lip service doesn't count.
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Well done.
If you love this sport, how can you not respond to this posters observations.

Jimmy, I dont know as much as some do about this game, but what little I do know,I will be more than happy to share with you, if we happen to show up at the same match.

When I was new like you, I asked a lot of annoying questions, at the first match I attended. It took me a good while to eventually comprehend the many answers that I got.

A new T-Shirt may get you some attention at the next match you attend.

1oU1kMa.jpg





Glenn
 
Getting a mudhole stomped in your A _ _

My humble opinion on this subject is , many people cannot take not winning,. Their pride wont allow it. A few years ago I bought an almost new Hunter Class rifle from a guy that had the rifle built, went to his first match, finished dead last, and never went back. We should all do everything we can to pull new shooters into this short range benchrest game.

Happy Saturday from America
 
Lots of positive thoughts in this thread. I'll begin by admitting I'm a score shooter not a group shooter. This is partly because when I became interested in benchrest the closest group matches were over 300 miles away and mostly still are. So my observations are, for the most part, from the outside looking in. Granted, score shoots are easier to run and take less equipment (moving backer system), but other than that and maybe more intense scoring, most other factors are similar. Over the past eight years I've been involved in promoting and encouraging UBR score shooting. There are a couple of factors I've seen that have a lot of influence. One is that, for the most part, the typical shooter doesn't really want to do anything other than show up and compete. They would prefer to not be bothered by volunteering for all the minutiae of putting on a match. But happily, there are usually a few who see the need and are happy to help. I've benefitted from this greatly.
If as many as possible would recognize the need to volunteer to help it would go a long way. But possibly what is needed most are folks who are willing to take responsibility for organizing and directing matches along with finding ranges willing to allow the same. This is what I run into most when people contact me about shooting UBR. It's my opinion that the only way this can be dealt with is on an individual bases. See a need and take responsibility to fill it. I think that if directors are found, they will find the venues. Once matches are established it's the other shooters responsibility to encourage and help new shooters. For benchrest shooting to grow and be sustained I think it must be a grassroots effort and this is true whether it be group or score.

The club I am with has recently lost it's lease and we are building a new range. We will continue to hold UBR score matches, but we have also seen some interest in group matches. It's my intention to do some research and see what a moving backer system will cost and how to build it. I believe that if we build it, they will come.

Rick
 
IMO, new growth has to begin at the club level. I'm in the DFW area. 7.4 million people. Yet the closest registered SR Group match is an occasional one held in Seymour, TX which is 2.5 hrs away. There are other matches 4+ hours away. The closest LR Group match I believe may be in St. Louis. There are no registered VFS matches inside 4 hours away. So for people to participate, there's got to be matches reasonably close to home. I've never shot a Group match. I'm just getting started in benchrest shooting after about 10 years in F-Class. But here are my straight from the heart feelings about the benchrest game... 1) Lots of politics. The crap that went back and forth about Rodney Brown last year was a real turn off. 2) Overall, matches are too slow. Too much time spent dealing with hanging, pulling, scoring paper targets. 3) I know nothing about moving backers other than their sole purpose is to prevent cheating. Now what does that say to a new shooter? Cost is not the issue. The PRS Rambos mount FFP European glass that cost a fortune. I think there needs to be radical revamp of our thinking. Why does NBRSA spend money publishing a monthly magazine? All it is are scores from matches held in places I've never heard of. You can do all that though a internet website like this one.I personally think the Score game is better than Group; but that's just me. If backer systems are an obstacle to running Group matches, let's modify the game to make them unnecessary. Instead of shooting 5 shots at one bull, how 'bout we shoot 1 shot on a 5-bull target? Scan the target the target like the ARA guys and have the computer plot out the theoretical aggregate. Seems like things might actually go faster. I've had too much coffee this morning and I may be way off the reservation. But some things need to change. Some of the changes may be out of our hands. If the parents of Boy Scouts really understood the purpose why scouting was begun, foreign concepts to society today like self-reliance, they sure as hell wouldn't be objecting to their "babies" being near a gun range. It's akin to people who like eating steak but don't want the cow slaughtered. Good luck everyone!
 
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Kyle Schultz said:
IMO, new growth has to begin at the club level. I'm in the DFW area. 7.4 million people. Yet the closest registered SR Group match is an occasional one held in Seymour, TX which is 2.5 hrs away. There are other matches 4+ hours away. The closest LR Group match I believe may be in St. Louis. There are no registered VFS matches inside 4 hours away. So for people to participate, there's got to be matches reasonably close to home. I've never shot a Group match. I'm just getting started in benchrest shooting after about 10 years in F-Class. But here are my straight from the heart feelings about the benchrest game. 1) Lots of politics. The crap that went back and forth about Rodney Brown last year was a real turn off. 2) Overall, matches are too slow. Too much time spent dealing with hanging, pulling, scoring paper targets. 3) I know nothing about moving backers other than their sole purpose is to prevent cheating. Now what does that say to a new shooter? Cost is not the issue. The PRS Rambos mount FFP European glass that cost a fortune. I think there needs to be radical revamp of our thinking. Why does NBRSA spend money publishing a monthly magazine? All it is are scores from matches held in places I've never heard of. You can do all that though a internet website like this one.I personally think the Score game is better than Group; but that's just me. If backer systems are an obstacle to running Group matches, let's modify the game to make them unnecessary. Instead of shooting 5 shots at one bull, how 'bout we shoot 1 shot on a 5-bull target? Scan the target the target like the ARA guys and have the computer plot out the theoretical aggregate. Seems like things might actually go faster. I've had too much coffee this morning and I may be way off the reservation. But some things need to change. Some of the changes may be out of our hands. If the parents of Boy Scouts really understood the purpose why scouting was begun, foreign concepts to society today like self-reliance, they sure as hell wouldn't be objecting to their "babies" being near a gun range. It's akin to people who like eating steak but don't want the cow slaughtered. Good luck everyone!
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Kyle,
Lots of very good points IMO. I completely agree that matches need to be started up locally. If there is interest later, then national affiliation can be added. Things like providing equipment for new shooters is easily done on a local club level and is very encouraging to newbies. I been able to hook a few that way. I'll also comment on the speed of the match. As I said, I'm not a group shooter and have only shot a few group matches. However, I have occasionally shot at score matches where the directors don't seem to be interested in moving along. The matches I direct shoot two yardages, usually have 15-25 shooters involving two relays and about 5-6 hours to complete. This includes a short break for lunch. I will point out in fairness that the majority of our score shooters come preloaded so there is no need to wait for loading between matches, so it moves along pretty fast. These are issues that can be decided locally and there is nothing that can't be worked out.
Humans in general don't like change. But some things need to change a bit or at least be tweaked. We can do this.

Rick
 
Greyfox said:
We will continue to hold UBR score matches, but we have also seen some interest in group matches. It's my intention to do some research and see what a moving backer system will cost and how to build it. I believe that if we build it, they will come.
Click to expand...

Rick, I hope your club puts on some group shoots -- I may even volunteer to help. BTW, I agree with the "Field of Dreams" analogy.


Kyle Schultz said:
3) I know nothing about moving backers other than their sole purpose is to prevent cheating. Now what does that say to a new shooter?
...
Why does NBRSA spend money publishing a monthly magazine? All it is are scores from matches held in places I've never heard of. You can do all that though a internet website like this one.
...If backer systems are an obstacle to running Group matches, let's modify the game to make them unnecessary. Instead of shooting 5 shots at one bull, how 'bout we shoot 1 shot on a 5-bull target?
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Kyle,
Regarding # 3, sometimes people fail to put five shots on their target for reasons other than cheating.
Regarding, the magazine, Amen to that?
Regarding your suggestion to modify the group game, that sounds like it would then be a score game -- not group.
 
Greyfox said:
Kyle,
.... I'll also comment on the speed of the match. As I said, I'm not a group shooter and have only shot a few group matches. However, I have occasionally shot at score matches where the directors don't seem to be interested in moving along. ...

Rick
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For the most part, you won't see that at registered group matches. If anything, they may move along a little too fast for some shooters. There is a minimum time between when you shoot and when you shoot again of 30 minutes, but if everyone is back on the line sooner. The range officer will usually ask if anyone objects to starting early. If everyone is back on the line and ready to shoot, I've never heard anyone object. Likewise, if someone needs more time, tell the range officer and he'll take care of that as well. Most generally the Saturday matches in the GC region will finish up at about 3 or 4 on Saturday and because we start an hour earlier on Sunday will finish at about 2 pm or so giving everyone plenty of time to drive home that afternoon depending upon how many hours it takes.

Kyle has seen where I live. I'm centrally located. Which means I'm a long way from anywhere. A 200 to 350 mile or farther drive one way is typical for me for a weekend match. A good set of plans for a light weight cheap to make moving backer system would probably go a long way to help clubs with hosting group matches. Some of us tend to over engineer everything we build and I figure that was what happened with the moving backer system at Tomball that made it so heavy. Club level group shoots take place all the time without moving backers done with the number of shots on the honor system. But, it seems that there is always someone who has to win no matter what he has to do to do it. Three or four shots into the target and one or two into the berm. When you have a moving backer, you don't have that. It keeps honest people, honest. It's also pretty easy especially for new shooters to lose track of how many shots you have on the target if you don't have some kind of system of keeping track of it while you are shooting especially if you go back to the sighter very much. That's something that old shooters can help new shooters learn. That kind of thing. Bench set up, flag set up, loading tricks to make sure primers are put in cases, powder put in cases, etc. Things that we have all done or not done at one time or another.

Most of us when we are at a match are so concentrated on our shooting that we tend not to do much to help new shooters. I guess it's a matter of being too focused. It certainly doesn't hurt to have the views of new shooters brought to the front like this is. New shooters are the life blood of any organization.
 
Hunter said:
Regarding your suggestion to modify the group game, that sounds like it would then be a score game -- not group.
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Perhaps because of the formatting issues, my point was not clear. The scanner reads the shot on each of the 5 individual targets and then electronically lays the 5 targets on top of each other. It then calculates a composite aggregate. I think ARA does something like that now. Only difference is that you have 1 shot at 5 different point of aims rather than 5 shots at 1 POA. If you're determining winners and losers by who has the smallest aggregate, it's the same game. And you don't need to putz around with a moving backer.
 
It's not that simple

Some people tune by how the groups form on the target. Shooting 1 shot on five 5 targets really won't work very good at all. I sometimes shoot my group very fast and hold as the wind dictates. Going to another target would be a PITA to say the least. The moving backer system works. Yes, it's more work but that is just the way it is.

Richard Brensing
 
After posting then reading the proceeding posts, I see now that the issue of (whats killing the group game) is far more complex. I started the group game in the late 80's with a LV Sleeved Remington 40X in 222 then 6X47. In the 90's I upgraded to the 6PPC. I referenced that the game has stagnated. My reasoning is that when I started over 30 years ago, my equipment, components and caliber was somewhat the same then as it is now. 25 years ago, I used the CPS Aluminum Heavy Varmint action and Lilja barrel in 6PPC, the CPS Aluminum Light Varmint action and Hart barrel in 6PPC. Both with the CPS Aluminum Skeleton stock, 2 oz triggers and Leupold 36X. This outfit would be as competitive today as it was then. I see now that most of the issues on today's matches are centered on lack of shooters participation (helping out on the range), lack of proper facilities, shooters seeking different venues and more self gratification. The group game has never been easy, it requires the utmost in dedication and discipline just to be somewhat competitive. I like the camaraderie of the event, sharing ideas, visiting with friends, all of which share the same passion. I don't think group shooting is for the masses, and never has been. DAN
 

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I love it as it is. Wouldn’t change a thing.
Same thing to me as if I got to race against Dale Earnhardt last weekend. Even led a lap on him woohoo!!
Imagine that, theres no other sport like it!
 
Group is growing here!

Lots of good points above. I would argue in our area, group shooting was in danger of dying a few years ago, but we have since doubled or tripled participation in our area and have a very strong contingent of shooters in Western Canada. Our home club around here is the Rosebud Silhouette & Benchrest Club. Some folks will know that we are hosting the World Championship in July of 2019.

To put it in perspective we were down to about 6 active group shooters, and now will have about 20 - 25 active shooters close by, this is in a region with only about 2 million people within a 3 hour drive in any direction. The club recently expanded the firing line to 25 benches, doubled our clubhouse size, contoured the ranges, increased parking areas, seeded grass among other improvements.

How did we get to this point? We recognized that we had the best kept secret in the shooting sports, and almost nobody understood it well enough to take the plunge, and the fear of the unknown was keeping people from jumping in. It is a daunting task to get in to this game. Mentorship is very important.

1. Schools, we run a BR101 clinic almost every year, where students are paired up with coaches and shoot over the coaches flags, using the coaches rifles. This has resulted in 1-2 new participants every year. In our region and size, this is a win. I don't let students shoot their own rifles, as it defeats the purpose of shooting over the flags with a field rifle.
2. we run an occasional BR201 clinic for experienced BR shooters and have had Jack Neary and Wayne Campbell to our range to help the shooters get the best possible information.
3. I gave up on recruiting volunteers long ago. We pay our helpers to run targets and score, and make it worth their while. Match fees are a bit higher, but so be it. Attendance has soared. We don't have volunteer fatigue anymore.
4. Make sure the host club benefits from closing the range for the weekend. Can't emphasize this enough.

Some additional observations:
1. I don't think cost is the issue people think it is, I see PRS and F class shooters paying much higher match fees, using more expensive kits, traveling just as far, and their numbers are growing. Cost is a red herring or convenient excuse. If people want to compete they will make BR a priority in their lives and find the time and money. It has always been this way. It costs money to compete in anything at the highest level. Saving $10 on an entry fee will never draw people from out of town. Make sure the match is well run and shooters are looked after. First impressions are very important for out of towners.
2. While some see the equipment required to get on the playing field as a problem, we see it as a draw. That is, who wouldn't want to get involved with arguably the sexiest, coolest equipment out there? Never forget this is the top fuel, or F1 of the shooting world. Anyone who says BR is stagnant isn't paying close enough attention. We have 10 rail guns at our tiny club. We let everyone shoot them, some get hooked. The equipment has always been a draw, embrace it.
3. I have not been a fan of the idea of classing or handicapping. Part of the excitement for me back at my first big shoot in Phoenix in 1997 was paying my entry fee and shooting against the best in the world. No other sport affords the luxury of this unencumbered entry to compete with the best. Try that in tennis, or motorsports, or golf etc. We have it good in BR.
4. We don't expect that BR will appeal to everyone, maybe not even 1 in a 100 casual shooters will take it up, or maybe not even 1 in a 1000 shooters will take it up. Our job is to make sure that when the 1 in a 100 guy wants to get in involved, he can easily find us and get the support he needs to succeed.

Note that there will be 10 guys from around here piling into various vehicles and pulling trailers for a 33 hr drive headed to Holton in September for the NBRSA Nats. Look us up! yes we are that crazy about this sport!

Lastly, anyone that wants to talk to me about the program and success we have had in growing the sport out here, should contact me rickpollock@shaw.ca

Rick
 
Over the last 60 years I have shot registered Trap, IHMSA Silhouette, Bullseye/2700,etc. All have been cyclic. None have stayed constant in popularity or population.


.
 
Always remember a Born Loser comic panel where his son asks, "If it doesn't matter if you win or lose, why do they keep score."

There's more than one recent generation who have lost the capacity to keep score.
 
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