Ignition, Hall vs. Turbo

Tim

How can one tell an ignition problem from an ammo problem?

If one has more high shots than dropped shots is that more likey to be from ammo or ignition?
:confused:
 
The ammo is going to have a certain amount of inherent variation in velocity which will be reflected in the standard deviation depending on the quality. The more erratic it is, the higher the standard deviation. I'm operating under the assumption that if you have poor ignition in one action versus another action, this will be reflected as a change in the standard deviation usually as an increase.
 
Ignition

KEN HARPER said:
The ammo is going to have a certain amount of inherent variation in velocity which will be reflected in the standard deviation depending on the quality. The more erratic it is, the higher the standard deviation. I'm operating under the assumption that if you have poor ignition in one action versus another action, this will be reflected as a change in the standard deviation usually as an increase.
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Ken, what you say makes sense.

I guess my question is a little off topic. What I was trying to determine was if I had an ammo problem, or an ignition problem. I don't have a Turbo, so I can't compare, as you did.

I've heard many people say poor ignition shows up as low shots on the target. I don't have that, as a matter of fact I have more going out the top. Any ideas?
 
Unless you have some way to measure the velocity of the high flyers you are just "shooting in the dark". It could be ammo, wind, a tuning problem, or something else.
 
My testing of SD with a couple of rifles shows it can vary depending on the operator. If you shoot at a constant speed, not worrying to much about group size you will get lower SD than if you are varying your shot times waiting for a condition trying to get a good group. So many variables. Rich
 
Keith23 said:
How can one tell an ignition problem from an ammo problem?

If one has more high shots than dropped shots is that more likey to be from ammo or ignition?
:confused:
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Keith, well that's probably better asked than answered. From what I've seen ignition can often cause the shots that drop out the bottom, which can be ammo as well. Often if there's a couple guys are shooting the same lot and only one has issues, it might be ignition. If you shoot 2-3 lots and get those mystery low 7's 8's. This is not easy and you just have to play around some, it also helps to have a circle of knowledgable buddies since that can really help, most of what I ever learned was sking a boatload of questions of most anybody I thought knew anything about these frustrating little SOB's.
Lots of guys just like to shoot. I've always liked to take stuff apart and figure why something works, you just gotta keep trying stuff out. It also helps if you've got a BS filter.
 
Rich In Kansas said:
My testing of SD with a couple of rifles shows it can vary depending on the operator. If you shoot at a constant speed, not worrying to much about group size you will get lower SD than if you are varying your shot times waiting for a condition trying to get a good group. So many variables. Rich
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Rich, you make an excellent point. I'd often wondered but never proved to myself what the spread would be if you had say 30sec spacing as opposed to 90 sec., but I bet that lube in the bbl changes a fair amount.
 
tim said:
Rich, you make an excellent point. I'd often wondered but never proved to myself what the spread would be if you had say 30sec spacing as opposed to 90 sec., but I bet that lube in the bbl changes a fair amount.
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I've never seen one of our greatest shooters perform but I've been told by a few that have watched him that Harry Deneen shoots, from their observation, consistently timed shots and if/while he's waiting for a condition he shoots on the sighters while biding his time. If that is the case, and it sounds like a good plan also, he is keeping his barrel (and rhythm) at a pretty much consistent temperature. I'm sure I've been bit numerous times while waiting on conditions without firing consistently. Didn't want to waste the ammo don't you know so I usually ended up wasting some targets by breaking my rhythm and timing of the shots. I think Harry knows exactly what he was doing and why he does it.
 
Is there a hidden "value" everyone has missed?21

wb9uze said:
<snip> I'm sure I've been bit numerous times while waiting on conditions without firing consistently. <snip>.
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I'm no expert by any means but i have shot enough in the last year or so to realize there is "something" to rhythm. Bill's theory moisture starts forming after the shot got me to watching a little closer.

In the last few months i have worked on my rhythm- i have noticed if i fumble getting the next round out of the box, add maybe 5 or 6 sec to the next shot, the point of impact moves. If i'm shooting groups i know fumbling for the round is going to cost me and it does 9 out of 10 times. It's not conditions changing because i shoot when there is no wind. (well pratically no wind)

It seems to me the best rhythm is a pretty fast pace for the best groups. I have not timed something like 30 sec pace to see what happens but that is next. I shoot a Kimber 82G with a .980 bbl. If it heats up any you cannot tell by touch. Even my Ruger 10/22's shoot better groups with a fast pace.

I like the idea it might be the lube, maybe be water forming as Bill says but the water would have to be a by product of combustion. I know gasoline engines make water when the fuel burns so it could be h20 forming from the burnt gun powder. Maybe a chemist could let us know does burning gunpowder produce water.

Does a tenth of a degree temperature difference in a rimfire barrel -change POI? If so it will cool down a lot slower than it warms up.

I wonder if any of the professional shooters here would comment about "rhythm" while shooting -and why they think it does or does not help. Thanks to the members and Mr. Wilbur for a very informative site! joe :)
 
There may be something to shooting at a steady controlled rhythm. Just watch Danny Keeney and Scotty Hebert, two shooters who are consistently at the top of the game. They always manage to finish their targets in 10 minutes or less. I've shot with these two guys for years and always wondered how they can get a wind condition to remain constant long enough to rattle off 25 record shots plus sighters in that short of a time frame.
 
KEN HARPER said:
There may be something to shooting at a steady controlled rhythm. Just watch Danny Keeney and Scotty Hebert, two shooters who are consistently at the top of the game. They always manage to finish their targets in 10 minutes or less. I've shot with these two guys for years and always wondered how they can get a wind condition to remain constant long enough to rattle off 25 record shots plus sighters in that short of a time frame.
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Ken, My best guess is they know how to dope the wind. That has to come from experience doing it. I believe you could give the worlds most consistently accurate rimfire to the average shooter and they wouldn't fare as well as the more dedicated experienced guys that know how to work in the wind shooting one that is half as good. One guy I know shoots about as fast as anyone I've ever seen and for an old dude that probably can't see too well anyway he does pretty good. Even wins one once in awhile.....old buddy Bill Calfee. The devil made me say that Bill.....
 
Rhythm

Hello, I’d like to comment on rhythm but from a slightly different point of view. I coach smallbore target shooting (25yd – 50m indoor) Yes this is prone position shooting, but I’ve also have shot benchrest and think the 2 have quite a bit in common!
Rhythm is all about having a ‘shot plan’ that you stick to keeping everything the same every shot.
“jGEE said he sometimes fumbles getting the next round out of the box” if this is the case then he should start over from the beginning. He should also check to see if his box of ammo is in easy reach (close your eyes and your hand should drop onto the ammo box ie: blind man)
Benchrest would need a very short shot plan because sometimes scoring shots are fired so rapidly. The advantage of having a good rhythm is your attention is not diverted from the target or weather conditions.
I also think firing a sighter or two is a good idea while waiting for your weather condition to come back, this’ll help keep you mind on the job and maybe help with barrel temp or some else along those lines. You should have already timed the phases, so shouldn’t miss your selected weather condition.

Thanks John
 
Back in 2001 Butch Hongisto won the ARA stat line. He was one of the fastest shooters I have ever seen. Fiiinished his targets in about 5 minutes. There were several other good shooters who were fast too. I don't know how he did it as the flags seemed to change and he really didn't have time to adjust his point of aim. It was almost as though he were ignoring the condition and just shooting. Too bad he retired from active competition. On the other hand, Dearl Lane used the full 20 minutes and seemed to finish every target with seconds to go.
 
Dearl Lane used the full 20 minutes and seemed to finish every target with seconds to go.[/QUOTE said:
Dearl Lane's ability is certainly well known but I'd be curious as to how many rounds he might have put downrange on each 20 minute target. Maybe he keeps his barrel warm too and shoots with a consistency. Would be interesting to know wouldn't it.
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BARREL WARMING "unplugged"

I can see center fire heating the barrel, i am undecided about rimfire. Shooting subsonic .22 cal (small round) in .800 to 1.00" bbls doesn't generate much heat in my experience. On a 50 degree day after 25 rounds at a fast pace the bbl is still cold in my experience. I just don't even feel of my bbl anymore looking for heat because it just ain't never there.

Anyone care to think "outside the box" on this one. I don't think it is heat or wind but i think there is something to rhythm and a fast pace. This is just from my experience, a fast pace helps me but why. How about something "new" for a reason. Calfee's water forming theory could be true. Hey he don't mind putting forth "nutty" ideas, lol.

If anyone come can up with something none of us are thinking about, just say your neighbor broke in and used your computer, lol. I need another piece of the puzzle to ponder over plz! joe :)

(if the top notch shooters are using a fast pace to win with, is that a clue?)
 
Bill Calfee had one of those gun-like thermometers at a match in Borden in 2008. Outside temp was probably around 85. Best I remember the barrel close to the action was around 98 degrees at its hottest and maybe up to 110 out 12-14 inches. It seemed fairly consistent from rifle to rifle.
 
jGEE said:
(if the top notch shooters are using a fast pace to win with, is that a clue?)
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Joe, IMHO it's not so much the emphasis in the fast pace as it is the shooter who knows what they are capable of. They know their equipment inside out, they believe and trust every aspect of the whole package working together. A 4-5 minute run on a target to me feels like slow motion, nothing left or right of you exists, you can't hear other shots or anyone talking, there is no thinking about where to place the next shot, you just know. It;s like time has stopped.

Every wonder why sighters are usually good and when its time to move back for score sometimes Ouch, you move back to the sighter and it's good, move back and again Ouch. My belief, one is more relaxed, they trust what the conditions are showing them for that brief moment and not second guessing or forcing the shot , it doesn't count and only gives one a reference. There are no bonus points or rewards given to the fastest shooter. Know your limitations, know what you as a shooter and your equipment are capable of and find the pace that works for you in that moment of time.

Take Care,
Joe
 
Joe Friedrich said:
<snip>Joe, IMHO it's not so much the emphasis in the fast pace as it is the shooter who knows what they are capable of. They know their equipment inside out, they believe and trust every aspect of the whole package working together. A 4-5 minute run on a target to me feels like slow motion, nothing left or right of you exists, you can't hear other shots or anyone talking, there is no thinking about where to place the next shot, you just know. It's like time has stopped. <snip>

Take Care,
Joe
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Mr. Joe thanks for the reply. What you said above has happened to me a few times, didn't know if i was imagining something or not.
I don't have real benchrest rifles but i bought a nice Kimber 82 Government a few months back, figure it's a start. I really like it -when i first got it i shot a lot ever day. That's when i realized with a rapid rhythm i shot better. Several times -time did seem to stop so to speak, it was almost like i was "throwing the shot" at the target and i knew where they were going when i fired. It was amazing. I knew what i was doing was unorthodox but it was working. I was afraid to take to much time aiming because it would throw me off pace.

When i had my pace working i was reloading -aim fire, -reload aim fire sometimes as the crosshairs went across center, i didn't want to get out of rhythm. Thats when the fumbling for the next cartridge would throw me off, i knew the next shot would be out and it was.
I had a nice 5 shot group working and the UPS truck went by out front- i knew then i had lost my "sight tunnel" when i looked up. It was like i was shooting in a tunnel at the target. When i looked back , i didn't get back into the same place in the tunnel the shot was out of the group.

I appreciate you bringing this up Mr. Joe- i had sorta forgotten about the experience and didn't know if it was real or not. Now i know it was real. I'm gonna work on finding that tunnel again! thanks joe, joe :)
 
ignition

This thread has changed from ignition to shooting rhythm but there may still be some interest in ignition so I'll offer some thoughts:

The firing pin spring load, pin weight, and pin shape are all important and will affect ignition. However, these will stay relatively consistent and as long as a minimum striking force is established in the original action design there will probably be little change in ignition shot to shot. Where a change or inconsistency is most likely to occur will come from the rimfire case.

Ignition occurs because the U shaped rim is crushed or deformed. This crushes the primer. To what extent this U is deformed depends on the brass properties and the dimensions of the U. It wouldn't be unusual for any of the properties or dimensions to vary by 100% - even in the best ammo! It's this case variation, rather than the variation that might occur within the bolt that probably will cause an ignition problem.
 
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