How much bore runout is too much?

All of us "hot shot Machinist and Gunsmiths" are striving to work within a couple of tenths when chambering, and then go and place rounds in the chamber that have runnout in the "thousanths", not "tenths". Checked any of your loaded rounds lately??

I have checked numerous loaded rounds for shooters at matches, and very few run better than .002.

Is placeing a round that is dead true a chamber that is out .002 the same as placing a round that runs out .002 in a dead straight chamber???:rolleyes:.

I have shot 10-shot "ones" in competition with ammo that I know ran no better than .002.......jackie

It's funny you say this, because I often think of this too..I've always wondered if someone could make a collett that held a piece of brass by the body, and allow you to machine the neck concentric to the body.....as if it was in a chamber.
 
The ends of the bores are very close to the OD's because of the way the bores are centered and the OD turned in the barrel makers finishing process. Its the bore runout away from the ends that is the problem.

These blanks are just that. Unturned blanks. Yes, I can buy in CM steel that there would be a big movement after turning the OD. In stainless, I have never experienced that. Later perhaps I'll write a lengthy explaination of what I've done and what I saw when I did it.

If you can run your little CNC with the door open, set one of those barrels up and jog the spindle at about 200 RPM or so, then look at the bore while it is spinning.

I did this very thing this summer in the one engine lathe here. I shown a light down the barrels and looked at 6 different ones of 3 different brands to see what all the hub-bub was about. 2 were new unturned, never chambered ones, ONe was new but turned and tapered. Two were used, tapered (after rifling) barrels that were agg winning barrels in 1000 yard, and one was a used, straight, (also season agg winning barrel). Honestly, what I saw I would have attributed to nothing more than an illusion from the surface finish / lustre inside the barrel.

I wanted to do something that would allow me to spin these barrels and somehow with a sensor attached to the middle of a wire, go down inside the barrel while it spun and see if there really was an irregular path to the hole. I never did that. Off the shelf proximity sensors are not only too big to fit down a barrel, but also are digital, not analog. I'd need a ratiometric version to check such a thing (kinda like an analog electronic indicator). I don't think I have the equipment to make something that small, unfortunately.

I've thought of a few ways to try this, none that I've taken the time to try though. I consider this more of a fun project than a useful one. Lately, I've not had a lot of time for "fun". I have another year old project to try first and that one I actually started. it's equally meaningless! Lol.
 
Mesh

The dirty little secret that most machinist and gunsmiths do not talk about is the fact that every barrel job is a series of compromises. Since you are dealing with a item, (ie, the barrel), that is less than perfect, you have to make decisions as to just how you will arrive at the best results.

One problem is that many who do barrel work are more or less "painting by the numbers". As long as there is no hic-cups in the formula, everything comes out OK. But, if the equation is changed at all, many do not have the knowledge, or skill, to figure out the best way to approach the problem.

In job shops all over the country, making decisions such as this are an every day occurance. That is why I stress to the young men that I have taught this trade to, (machinist), that is is not good enough to simply know "how to do things". The true craftsman learns, and understands, "why you do things". ......jackie
 
Jackie and Jerry,

I'll try to explain why I think the way I do on some of these processes. I'll just give a few unrelated examples, and when you look at all of them together, they'll make more sense.

Some years ago, I questioned the amount of stress that could be found in a piece of material. I took a piece of 1" steel (some cm steel scrap laying around). it was about 15" long. I put a center drill in one end so I could do work with a live center. Then I chucked the part with about 10" of material out of the chuck. Put the center in, and without coolant, I turned the part down. When I got to around 1/2 or 5/8" dia, I stopped and pulled the center out. The part had so much stress relieved/induced that if I pushed the live center back in to it, the point of the center missed the part. So, it became pretty darn crooked. Ok, I can buy this in 4140 barrels then.

Another instance, I taper my own barrels. Begining with an 1.450 or 1.500 blank, I put in good centers (bored) and then chuck the barrel between centers. Now, I take a very light skim cut in the center so there's something to chuck on that's in line with the ends of the bore. (good tools, speeds, etc) Now I move that to a 15" CNC. Chuck where the cut was made. And put a center in the exposed end. Then I turn 1/2 of the barrel to it's final profile. (all these dimensions are drawn up in AutoCAD first). Now, I take a hunk of alum, and OD turn it, then bore it to the exact taper I just cut on the barrel. Cut it off, deburr, and sock that baby on the barrel where I just tapered 1/2 of it. Now, turn it around in the lathe, chuck on the piece of alum, and back taper the other half. I always do the muzzle end first for this fixture's reasons.
Now, with a good datum taken from the first taper job, and good numbers from AutoCAD. That barrel ends up with a virtually invisible transition. I sand it a little and I defy anyone to show where the tool paths converge.

Now, take that SS barrel blank to a surface plate, and you can barely see light under it anywhere when you roll it around. It's as straight as a die.

Now, this is a 1.5" barrel tapered to .930 or so, and it does not move. Now, in chromemoly, yes, you'll have a pretzel. In Stainless, I've never seen one curve even a few thou. Honestly, I'd say not even .001 over 24-26". Let's just say no stress is added/removed/present to begin with.

So, put that with the above dimensions I gave from 2 brand new blanks, and well, how much error is there to be found. Even the instance where I did see a barrel that had "error", if you told me I made a mistake there, I can think of at least one way that the barrel may well have been straight,and I altered the setup. I'll never know. I do know this, I dont' believe in crooked bores to the degree that some folks say they exist. At least not in SS match barrels from the typical vendors we buy from. Again, in CM, this is a problem.

When a hole is deep, and glossy, it's hard to look at it and tell much about it with the naked eye. That's why they invented the profilometer and the dial-bore. I bet that what we can see with the naked eye is damn near impossible to measure. I've spun barrels and looked through them. I've seen "anomolys". Do I know what they are? nope...

I did think of a way to actually check the inside of a barrel for imperfections (curves). It would be a very complicated machine to build but might be fun. If I was to rotate the barrel in steps, and electronically check internal dimensions with a pivoting stylus that shorted an input when it touched the barrel, I could "graph" the inside of the barrel as if it was a flat surface, and look for "imperfections". Boy, I bet barrel makers would love to see that thing built eh! lmao...

Since I never deal with chromemoly barrels, I tend to stay out of these discussions. When I see people say they have this sort of trouble in stainless barrels, I have to wonder if there's not a huge measuring error being made.

I know that the companies that do lots of barrels and have nice gun drills, drill some prit tee nice holes.
 
4mesh, I'll try to shed some light on materials stress and drilling straight holes. First off, I am not a barrel maker nor have I ever been in a barrel makers shop, but I did spend over 40 years in the largest job shop in Tennessee. Your experiment with turning Chrome-Moly (SAE 4140, 4150, etc.) (CM), your turning method induced most of that stress. Had you used coolant and positive rake tooling things would have come out much different.

When making gun barrels and drilling that long deep hole, the material, CM or SS, must be stress free. The barrel makers use heat treatment and sub-zero cooling (a cryogenic process) to remove stresses depending on the material they are machining. At the best they can do, there will be some curve in the hole. Mechanics of the metal removal process, like when the chips block the coolant flow, dulling and edge flaking of the carbide tipped drill, inclusions in the bar stock, and other factors, prevent drilling a perfectly straight hole.

In the late 1960's we had a job in the shop to drill a 1/8" diameter hole through the center of 1,800 pieces of CM that were about 25" long. This hole was for compressed air that operated a mechanical release of the yarn bobbin tube that this shaft rotated. We were successful in drilling an exceptionally straight hole even though functionality of this machine part did not require it.

We came up with a method to drill this very small, deep hole, not as the goal of making the hole straight, but as the goal of getting the gun drill operating at the required surface footage.

"Gun" drill is a term used by a special, straight fluted, carbide tipped, tool that was developed to drill gun barrels. Makes sense. However, many other uses of this special tool occur out in the world of machining outside the rifle/pistol barrel making process. These tools are made by tool builders like Eldorado and others. http://www.dmetool.com/ (look at this site to better understand the physical design and operating requirements.)

Getting back to the story of the job we had. With the machinery we had available and the time constraint of the job, we did not have time to build a special machine or send the job outside. (In those days, we did it in-house, or else). So, the first problem to overcome was getting the drill bit up to the required RPM. We were planning on using an engine lathe spindle to power the drill but the lathes would not run that fast. To overcome the problem, we decided to spin the workpiece in one direction while spinning the drill in the other direction. As I remember we needed about 5,000 RPM to stabilize the drill and get the required Surface Footage (SFM).

We set two Monarch engine lathes tail to tail and lined them up with an elaborate setup of surveyor transits and an optical telescope. These lathes were in the 25 X 96 class (25" swing and 96" center distance). On one lathe the part was rotated, with one end chucked and the outboard end in a roller steadyrest rotating at 2,500 RPM. Just down the lathe ways sat the gun drill propelled, by the spindle of that lathe, again, rotating at 2,500 RPM giving us a total work-material to cutting-material relationship of 5,000 RPM.

(We used splined shafts and intermediate steadyrests,mounted on the lathe carriages, to feed the drill and the workpiece toward each other. A Rube Goldberg setup for sure)

The result of spinning the workpiece and spinning the drill, these holes came out exceptionally straight. I wonder why the barrel manufacturers don't do this....or do they??

(Please forgiving this rambling post. I'm in a rambling mood this morning. How does this help answer the original question? Hopefully it will help understand why barrel bores are not perfectly straight....none of them.)
 
Jerry,
I had an interesting conversation with a premier barrel maker just recently about how straight the bores were. I work on rim-fires and there have been some exceptional shooting barrels coming from this maker so I asked if he could check for bore curve and send me a good straight one. We talked about bore diameters to .0001 and other things but he wouldn't really relate checking straightness of the bore. I asked him if he had ever tried to pass a gauge pin 2 inches long with just a slip fit through the entire bore. He laughed and said "that's a sure way to ruin a barrel because the pin will get stuck and you can't drive it out without ruining the barrel".

So much for how straight the bore is. You are correct in that it is a system of compromises.

Jeff
 
The result of spinning the workpiece and spinning the drill, these holes came out exceptionally straight. I wonder why the barrel manufacturers don't do this....or do they??

Jerry,
I'm familiar with the bits, as we have them at work and have used them from time to time. Now, we do not have a "gun drill", meaning the machine intended to use these properly. We do just what you mention, run a "gun drill bit" in a lathe with high pressure coolant and hope for the best. Some of the very well known action manufacturers do this exact same thing when boring their action blanks.

Gun drills, (the machine for drilling barrels), counterrotate the part and the tool. That's important in getting a straight hole. That's the reason a lathe isn't generally used as a gun drill to begin with. Not for real deep hole drilling anyhow.

FYI, I was trying to induce stress in that part for informations sake. That was the reason for no coolant and cuts shallower than to bury the tool radius. (push)

Jeffery, I think the gage pin won't go down the barrel because it will gaul, not cause it won't fit. I've seen this done using an air hammer. (seen a lot of stuff! :D ) Stainless just ain't that friendly to parts scuffing across it's surface. Least of all really soft stuff like barrel steel. Ask any gunsmith about gauling threads when there were several thousanths of clearance.

Jerry, interestingly enough, my brother used to work on a machine years ago that used gun drills for putting in through bolt holes in a aircraft engine crankcase. This was either an opposing 4 or 6 engine. The specially made machine had two drills running simultaneously toward one another. Both halves were assembled and done at the same time. The drill would start in one side and after a delay, the other would start in from the other side. The first would complete greater than 1/2 the distance, ranging from 30-36" total (15-18" / side). It would back out and the other would continue and the holes would meet in the center of the crankcase.

They used a go gage to be sure the thru bolts would later pass the transition from one side to the other. According to him, and I tend to believe him, most times, you could not even feel where the transition was. This all with a part that was not counterrotating and doing two drills simultaneously. (another expensive piece of equip like yours).

Perfect is a big word and I don't try to say that our bores are perfect. If you go back to Riflemeister's original post, he used a range rod and came up with a bore that has at least 43 thou of curve (at some point). Again, if this is a steel barrel I can believe that. But, the widely accepted view here is that the drill leads off causing this and I contend that is false. This is just another of those things I'd have to see to believe. I've just drilled too many straight holes with a twist bit to believe gun drills drive all over the place.
 
4Mesh,Do me a favor if you will,Take a peice of delrin or wharever & machine one end to fit into the end of a rifle barrel snug,Drill a 1/16 hole through it. Make 2 of these,& put them into each end of the barrel,Hold the barrel up to a good light & look into one end,As the light reflects off of the walls of the bore ,it will cause rings to appear,The better the internal finish,The more rings you will see.These rings will let you see how straight the barrel is,They will look like perfect circles if the bore is straight,But if the hole has a curve,it will show as a thinner ring on one side & larger on the other,Put the barrel in a vise & bend the barrel with hand pressure ,while looking into the barrel,you will see how much that you are actually bending the barrel by how much the rings change,You can tell where the curve is by counting the rings. BILL
 
Lots of times you can see these "rings" of light usually just by getting your eye close to the barrel and looking through it focusing on the other end... look at the floor ... you will see it better with a pin hole at the far end...

Hard to take a picture of it... set the focus on the floor and then tried to center on the bore... you can see the rings are very concentric if the bore is straight... as this Shilen 6mm is...

Bore%20rings.jpg
 
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Guys, it's almost time to leave here now so that's a project for tomorrow. Thanks for the tips.

Dennis, It just happens that I shoot all Shilen barrels now, though I've got other brands here which look identical to them in all the things I've done. I'll do this pinhole thing asap. Thanks again both of you. the idea sounds cool.
 
Mesh

Here is a good example of how much a Gun Drill can drift.

I recently purchased a new Unlimited Blank, I was going to chamber it up and take it to Rachels Glen last month.

I cut my Unlimited Barrels at 23 inches, so I had at least 6 inches to chop off of the muzzle end. After I did, and I chucked it up to start the chambering, I noticed something quite amiss. The muzzle end ID of the 1.450 blank now ran out over .012 with the OD. When I looked through the bore, it also appeared to have a pretty bad spot about 4 inches up from the chamber end.

That means that in 6 inches, that Gun Drill walked off that amount.

Not wanting to waste my time with an Unlimited Barrel in this shape, I contacted the manufacturer, and they said to send it, and the drop from the muzzle end, so they could take a look.

In about a week, I got a call saying that they would have me a new blank as soon as possible. It has been a long time since I had a barrel this bad, but sometimes things just happen.

I did have another Unlimited Blank, I chambered it up, and it was about as straight as you could ever hope for. It also shoots great.........jackie
 
Jackie, you make a good point.

I just happen to have a 32 inch barrel sitting around and tomorrow, I'll cut it into 2 or 3" lengths and see how it looks. This will be two interesting tests. I'll spin it first and make written notes of my guess of how it looks before I cut and see if what I see shows up in the end results.
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Well, the barrel I want to cut up isn't clean enough to suit me so I'll have to clean it tonight at home and cut it up tomorrow. From what I can see, it looks pretty straight now. Since I want to do the two delrin plug thing also, I'll just clean it for best results. Stay tuned.
 
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Ok, I've completed a test, though not the one I intended to do to begin with.

So, I cleaned a barrel, brought it back to work and spun it. I guess I'm supposed to see the "runout" where the gun drill drilled a pretzel hole, but, sorry, this barrel doesn't even have an illusion of being an issue. So, I figure there's no sence in cutting this thing into 3" pieces when I've seen this "runout" situation people talk about in other barrels I have here. (I think it's an illusion). So, I figure, hey, get one that at least shows something and let's cut that up instead. So, I push a patch thru another barrel and look at that. It's hard to chuck up cause It's tapered and I don't have a bushing to hold it in the engine lathe headstock. So, I just spin the thing all swinging around and well, maybe it has some irregularity to the bore, maybe it doesn't. I don't know..

So, let me tell you the story of this barrel. It began as a straight blank. I sent it to a friend cause he said he had a lathe he could taper this thing in. I got it back and he'd done it between centers and it had great big gobbledygoobers all over it. (looked like a corncob turned inside out with chatter). It had lost diameter on the major dia, and well, clearly, this wasn't going on my gun. (despite that I rather like ugly guns. This was a bit over the top).

As I really did not have a lathe to taper this in, I decided to try doing the process I said above. 1/2 of it at a time, turning it around in the lathe. This was my first ever light gun barrel taper job. I made up the fixtures, got the barrel as close as I could but was restricted to leaving the breech end off center very slightly because I was already out of room for a barrel shoulder. I didn't have more material to remove or at least, didn't want to.

So, I stuck the barrel in the lathe and did ANOTHER taper job on it. This one turned out rather nice, and I chambered and shot the barrel. It came to the end of it's life and has been sitting for a few years. Don't ask me why it's still here.

So, I figured this barrel would be ideal for my cut-up and measure "test". If ever one should be crooked, this is it. Now, the original bore at the breech was NOT perfectly centered to begin with. My notes from the chamber job at the time confirm this. So, for our purpose here, I scribed a line down the side of the barrel so as to allow a person to keep any progressive error aligned with the rotation of the part as we travel longitudinally. The amount that it was eccentric (from piece to piece after cutting). The breech is off almost .005 from perfect. The muzzle end is about perfect. It's threaded for a brake so it's a bit tough to measure but clearly it's real close so we'll just call that end 0.

The Amount of variation from piece to piece (I cut the barrel into 8 lengths) all seems VERY close to what I would expect from a piece of steel that was OD turned twice over a 30" length. At NO POINT do I have .005 of eccentricity. All the variation is easily identified by looking at the scribe line and considering the relationship to the chamber end of the barrel. 1/2 way down the barrel, 1/2 of it is gone. This thought that the drills lead off, but then magically re-center themselves before exiting the 30 or 32" blank is a bit tough for me to swallow. I've seen drills lead off before, and in my experience, they continue getting worse, not better. Not most times, ... every time. A deaf person can hear it in the machine, as it happens, IF they have the least interest in listening to their machine.

I gotta tell you guys, if someone want's to show me that gun drills drill these holes that are crooked (to any degree we can measure), I'm gonna have to say "I'm from Moussouri... Show me." My bet is that when one does lead off, the next barrel sees a new drill.

Ok, I've cut up my barrel. If someone else wants to give this test a try, by all means please post your results. If someone wants to pay the shipping for the material I just cut up to see the parts first hand, let me know by PM and I'll ship it. (bit short for a match barrel now :D )
 
Guys,

The best ppc barrel I own was chambered using electrical tape to match the size of the spindle bore. There were bunches of layers of black tape wrapped onto the barrel by spinning until the "tape sleeve" made the spindle ID.

The muzzle end was driven back into the headstock with a rubber mallet. The chamber end indicated with gauge pins at the depth of the throat/lead.

Barrel not indicated in spider!!! This barrel really does dot, better than any of my others save an old Hart with more than 4000 shots and 2 new chambers and crowns.
 
Guys,


Barrel not indicated in spider!!! This barrel really does dot, better than any of my others save an old Hart with more than 4000 shots and 2 new chambers and crowns.
now that is a testimonial for you. it shoots almost as good as a Hart with 4000 rounds. please post your gunsmiths fone # im sure others will want to contact them,
 
Michael

Well, what ever works.

The method I use to chamber is quite similiar, though I must say a tad more in keeping things dead on.

I have a spot up in the spindle of my Pratt & Whitney Tool Room lathe that I bored dead true. It measures 1.525. I use a ring on the muzzle end that fits this spot dead on to accurately locate the muzzle.

However, The ring is not just placed on the muzzle. I true the muzzle end ID dead true, and turn a spot about 1/8inch long to .850. The ID of that ring taps up on this spot.

I have been doing this ever since I started doing my own barrels years ago. It locates the muzzle dead true every time, I pre-drill the chamber end, reach in and indicate the throat area, then bore the chamber within a coupleof thousanths, and use the reamer for the final finish and dimensions., The chamber comes out dead true with the throat, and of course, the muzzle end, which is always running true........jackie

This type of set-up also allows me to set-up barrels very quickly when I set them back, which is quite often.
 
Jackie,

Thanks for your reply. I couldn't chamber the barrel myself, I had the headstock torn down for spindle cone pulley and final drive gear maint.

My friend's lathe has a headstock which puts the muzzle way back inside the gearbox where he couldn't get to it. Great idea about boring the spindle and a bushing to center up!


Wildcatter,
The old Hart barrel was purchased on a Nesika Bay and Hall stock with records of 1200 rounds. I shot it to just over 2000 shots with good accuracy. I cut @ 20.375 and rechambered/recrowned, it still shot well so I continued to use it. The third chamber put the rifle out of the NBRSA rules for barrel OAL but still works well for practice and varmint tipping.

I personally indicate both ends but I thought this was so outside fundamentals I was compelled to share. I wish I could take credit saying flag reading, set up or bench technique has improved, I can't, I haven't changed the basics.

There is truth in that when the electrical tape Shilen is Screwed onto my DS Bat, it shoots far better than two Shilens and two Kriegers, all five barrels are .237 bore at just below 22" OAL,all the basics... .262 necks, .0085 per side brass, 133, federal, Lapua, Leupold 40x etc. I have no explanation as to why it worked out, never the less, I am thankful for the outcome.
 
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