How do you guys setup to face a receiver

[mike82352]

I have seen all kind of threads on chambering a barrel, but I have not seen much on how to setup to face a receiver. I have looked at Mike Bryants web site and I like his fixture that he uses, but how do you indicate the receiver?
Do you indicate off of the threads? As you can tell from my questions, I'm new to all this, I understand the chambering and I also have the DVD that Gordy did for Grizzly on chambering, but I would like to know more about truing the receiver and bolt. Any help would really be appreciated.
Mike

 

[Dennis Sorensen]

What receiver?

If all you want to do is face the receiver a tight mandrel through the receiver on two centers will work fine with very high speed and a very light cut.
Anything you do should be based on the center of the bolt race...

 

[Bnhpr]

The mandrel is used to face the action, and indicate the action into the spider.... the spider is used to face the lugs, chase threads with a single point tool, etc.

Machine the mandrel between centers, and design the spider so you can cut/put a center in the headstock, put a 3 jaw chuck on, and use the mandrel to get your action very close with a live center in the tailstock. Hand tighten spider screws, with shimstock so you don't scar the action..

Then, slide the tailstock out of the way, and fine indicate on the mandrel with 2 test indicators (or 1 if your patient)

Remove the mandrel, and you can face off action face, locking lugs, re-cut threads...etc.

Ben

 

[ultramagmed]

Ben........

This may be a stupid newby question, but how are you getting a center and the truing jig (spider) in the three jaw chuck? Also, what material are you using to turn your mandrel, and are you finding the action raceway to be a consistant diameter throughout, or are you turning a taper on the mandrel? If you have any more pictures of this process I would love to see them.

Thanks in advance,
JKM

 

[Dennis Sorensen]

A while ago different methods of “truing” a Remington 700 action were discussed. I mentioned I had purchased some tooling and would be testing it shortly… I bought the tooling from Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool and Die in Oregon.

Previously I had been truing 700 actions in the lathe with considerable time involved. This tooling allows me to do the job much quicker and at a savings to the customer.

The test I did was to machine threads on a barrel stub in the lathe and then screw an unaltered 700 action on to this stub.

I inserted tight fitting straight bushings in the front and rear of the action in the bolt race way. The front of the action required a bushing of .7015”; the rear was .7025”. I then inserted a ground tool (a long piloted tap) made for those bushings and measured the run out just behind the action as I turned the lathe chuck by hand. It was running out .026”.

I then unscrewed the action and using the piloted tap re threaded the action. It removed threads more on one side than the other. Then I used a piloted cutter that removed a slight amount of the tops of the threads and re-cut the face of the action and the locking lug recesses. I had inspected the recess and the lugs were bearing well but a bit harder on the bottom lug and not particularly smooth.

After this threading and facing operation (done by hand in a vice) I screwed the action back on the threaded stub in the lathe with the same bushings in the bolt race way. I inserted the piloted tool (same as before) and when rotating the lathe chuck by hand found the run out was now less than .003”.
I then set the bolt itself up in the lathe and faced less than .002” of the rear of the bolt lugs. They were quite true. Then I took the bare action and screwed a bolt-facing guide into the action threads. I slipped the carbide bolt-facing tool behind the extractor. It is held there like a shell and I inserted the bolt and the tool into the action and the guide closing the bolt. It is held closed while the bolt facing-tool is pushed against the bolt and slowly turned. This is removed, inspected and redone until the bolt face just cleans up evenly. This assures the bolt face is not crooked to the bore.

Factory 700 barrels can still be used with this method although they require head spacing.

This does not make a 700 into a bench rest action, however it makes it much more accurate with a quality barrel. I feel the end result is as good as setting up and single point cutting in a lathe.

Here are two pictures of the run out, before and after...

Here is one picture of the action with the front bushing still in after re threading and facing.

 

[koginam]

I see all of these new ways of doing a simple job, one which is necessary but not rocket science. A proper mandrel and properly aligned centers will do the job right and in little time. I put a 1 inch dia. X 3 inch long center into the collett and true it by taking a cut along the taper, I put a live center into the tail stock then I indicate my tail stock with a precision ground rod between the centers, screw the action onto the mandrel and put between the centers and take my cut. Take maybe 4 minutes and you have a square cut receiver.

 

[Dennis Sorensen]

I see all of these new ways of doing a simple job, one which is necessary but not rocket science. A proper mandrel and properly aligned centers will do the job right and in little time. I put a 1 inch dia. X 3 inch long center into the collett and true it by taking a cut along the taper, I put a live center into the tail stock then I indicate my tail stock with a precision ground rod between the centers, screw the action onto the mandrel and put between the centers and take my cut. Take maybe 4 minutes and you have a square cut receiver.

But you don't know if the bolt lug recesses and the threads are square to the receiver... so a problem may still exist.

 

[koginam]

I think the mandrel takes care of making sure the reciver threads are square with the face, I think you mean locking lug recesses not recoil lug recess, but that is done with a fixture that threads in to the action and I lap them in sepertaly, with the fixture face cut square and the action face square when threaded in the recoil lugs are cut square to the reciver face. I lap the bolt face with the same fixture but a smaller lap that just fits the type of bolt face.
I am not knocking the way you guys do things but sometimes I think we like tools and fixtures just because were guys not because we need them or they do a better job.

 

[mike82352]

I’m new to all of this, so I will apologize for any stupid questions first.
If I’m getting this, it appears that some just screw the receiver onto the mandrel and then mount the mandrel between centers and indicate, then face the receiver while it is still on the mandrel. Is this correct?
Ben, are you just using the mandrel to help indicate the receiver in the spider? Then removing it and the facing the receiver, chasing the threads and squaring the locking lugs? Now for the dumb questions. How do you get the receiver tight on the mandrel, are you tightening it down onto the lugs or just making the mandrel with tight threads?
Again, thanks for all your input and thanks for the pictures. Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.
Mike

 

[frwillia]

The mandrel is used to face the action, and indicate the action into the spider.... the spider is used to face the lugs, chase threads with a single point tool, etc.

Ben,

If it is home made, would you share the dimensions of the spider? I can probably figure it out, but it would be quicker to get some numbers known to work.

I have a video called "Metal Working for a Rifle smith" that is published by Richard's Custom rifles. In that video he uses a home made spider like yours. I've got a chunk of metal that looks just like a spider trying to escape. All I need is some dimensions and I can make one.

Richard uses a couple of tapered bushings to center his mandrel in the action, apparently that way he can use one mandrel for several different actions. It seemed to work quite well in the DVD at least.

He used the Brownells jig to hold the bolt.

Thanks
Fitch

 

[jackie schmidt]

Doing just the face.

If it were me, I would forego all of the complicated set-ups and simply chuck up a piece of steel rod, (3/4 will do fine), put a center in it, then turn it to where the action bolt way just barley slips on, with just enough friction for the final 1/2 inch or so so it gets a little tight. Pull the tailstock back, slide the action up onto the turned piece, place the center back in, and gently face the end of the reciever.

Now, if you are going to get into chasing threads, truing abutments, etc, then, it gets complicated. But just facing the end of the action so it at least runs true with the bolt line is that simple.

But keep in mind, the threads will NOT run true with the face anymore. But then, they probably never did in the first place......jackie

 

[Bnhpr]

This may be a stupid newby question, but how are you getting a center and the truing jig (spider) in the three jaw chuck? Also, what material are you using to turn your mandrel, and are you finding the action raceway to be a consistant diameter throughout, or are you turning a taper on the mandrel? If you have any more pictures of this process I would love to see them.

Thanks in advance,
J.Kelly Medley

I'm 13,000 miles from my shop just now, but I will get some pics when i'm home.

The center goes in behind the 3 jaw, and is only used for alignment. If I were only going to face the reciever, i'd use a face plate and dog.

I like to cut a soft center in the 5MT to 3MT bushing, but a good hard center works ok too.

This particular mandrel I made from a piece of 34 crome (ENxx.xx) european grade of steel I had lying around...otherwise, I would probably go with a good SAE grade of steel that you can get and is reasonably machinable.

I made the mandrel, to face the action, and as more of a gauge to see if the threads and bolt are aligned. I've put 20 or so 700 actions on it this year, and so far, I have had no bad thread to raceway, within the tolerances of my particular mandrel. Inversely, the action face, has always been out a little on factory 700's...so I skim cut it.

I think a lot of ultra precise action truing etc. is black art BS...the barrel contains the mojo....

Ben

 

[J. Valentine]

A while ago different methods of “truing” a Remington 700 action were discussed. I mentioned I had purchased some tooling and would be testing it shortly… I bought the tooling from Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool and Die in Oregon.

Previously I had been truing 700 actions in the lathe with considerable time involved. This tooling allows me to do the job much quicker and at a savings to the customer.

The test I did was to machine threads on a barrel stub in the lathe and then screw an unaltered 700 action on to this stub.

I inserted tight fitting straight bushings in the front and rear of the action in the bolt race way. The front of the action required a bushing of .7015”; the rear was .7025”. I then inserted a ground tool (a long piloted tap) made for those bushings and measured the run out just behind the action as I turned the lathe chuck by hand. It was running out .026”.

I then unscrewed the action and using the piloted tap re threaded the action. It removed threads more on one side than the other. Then I used a piloted cutter that removed a slight amount of the tops of the threads and re-cut the face of the action and the locking lug recesses. I had inspected the recess and the lugs were bearing well but a bit harder on the bottom lug and not particularly smooth.

After this threading and facing operation (done by hand in a vice) I screwed the action back on the threaded stub in the lathe with the same bushings in the bolt race way. I inserted the piloted tool (same as before) and when rotating the lathe chuck by hand found the run out was now less than .003”.
I then set the bolt itself up in the lathe and faced less than .002” of the rear of the bolt lugs. They were quite true. Then I took the bare action and screwed a bolt-facing guide into the action threads. I slipped the carbide bolt-facing tool behind the extractor. It is held there like a shell and I inserted the bolt and the tool into the action and the guide closing the bolt. It is held closed while the bolt facing-tool is pushed against the bolt and slowly turned. This is removed, inspected and redone until the bolt face just cleans up evenly. This assures the bolt face is not crooked to the bore.

Factory 700 barrels can still be used with this method although they require head spacing.

This does not make a 700 into a bench rest action, however it makes it much more accurate with a quality barrel. I feel the end result is as good as setting up and single point cutting in a lathe.

Here are two pictures of the run out, before and after...

Here is one picture of the action with the front bushing still in after re threading and facing.

Dennis is being honest . The reality is that if a busy gunsmith did everything that some say they do. It would be impossible to get the work done , the price would inflate and customers would be waiting forever.

 

[mike82352]

Is a piece of 1.25 drill rod ok to make a mandrel out of? If so....do I turn it down so one end slides through the bolt raceway and then cut threads in the middle that fit my action and then turn down the other end so that I have room to face the action. If this is right, then do you mount one end in the chuck and the other to the tail stock or mount it between centers? Do I indicate off of the receiver OD or the mandrel? or is all this wrong????
Sorry, for all the questions. For you guys that have done this hundreds of times these probably are stupid questions, but for us budding want-to-be gunsmiths, its all new. You guys have helped so many of us new guys, you'll never know how much we appreciate all the time that you spend trying to help.
Thank you very much.
Mike

 

[Mike Bryant]

Dennis is being honest . The reality is that if a busy gunsmith did everything that some say they do. It would be impossible to get the work done , the price would inflate and customers would be waiting forever.

When you are truing several receivers in a row, the first one will take considerably more time to get indicated in with the two dial indicator method. After the first one, the next ones will indicate in a lot faster as long as you initially tighten back the set screws that you loosened to remove the first receiver from the truing jig. Remington's will indicate in fairly quickly because of the concentricity built in to the action. Winchester's and other actions with opposite sides not being machined the same will take considerably longer to indicate in.

I've trued a lot of Remington's, but when it comes to building rifles, I'd rather build a rifle on just about any custom action. I particularly like the Remington clones out there now such as the Stiller Predator and Tac actions, Borden Alpine and Timberline actions. I haven't had a Pierce action in the shop yet, but from everything that I've heard they sound very good.

 

[Don]

Is a piece of 1.25 drill rod ok to make a mandrel out of? If so....do I turn it down so one end slides through the bolt raceway and then cut threads in the middle that fit my action and then turn down the other end so that I have room to face the action. If this is right, then do you mount one end in the chuck and the other to the tail stock or mount it between centers? Do I indicate off of the receiver OD or the mandrel? or is all this wrong????
Sorry, for all the questions. For you guys that have done this hundreds of times these probably are stupid questions, but for us budding want-to-be gunsmiths, its all new. You guys have helped so many of us new guys, you'll never know how much we appreciate all the time that you spend trying to help.
Thank you very much.
Mike

Mike,

If I read your description correctly, you are incorrect about the "raceway mandrel", this is simply a tight fitting straight piece of bar stock, usually made from a cheap piece of .750 dia. o.d., 1214L leadloy steel, with centers cut in both ends for "receiver facing" only between centers.

This same mandrel can also be used to align an action in an action "trueing fixture", and is the mandrel that would be indicated to in order to obtain correct action positioning for action face, thread, and lug truing.

Another, and separate mandrel, from the "raceway mandrel" is used to determine thread positioning, it looks a bit like a barrel stub with a big hole thru it for clearance for the "raceway mandrel"

See the following Mike Bryant web photos for visual clarification;

http://www.bryantcustom.com/articles/true.htm

Don

 

[mike82352]

Mike Bryant......Thank you....great web site, helped a lot. A question.... I'm not sure what a threaded ball is. Is this just a threaded ball that screws onto a shaft and the ball rides up against the back of the bolt, kind of like a round lathe center.
A question for anyone.....
When you want to clean and straighten up the threads (once you have the receiver dialed in), What method do you use to pick up the threads. Do you run your threading tool into a thread (lathe not running) and then engage the half nut and see what number it is on, then use that number to engage on with the lathe running??????
Sorry for so many questions and again..... thank you guys for your help.
Mike

 

[mike82352]

I have hopefully attached a couple of drawings as to the mandrels that I think you guys are using. Are these close??????
You might have guessed, it's a little slow at work tonight....LOL

Mike

 

[Rustystud]

Remington, Stiller, Pierce, et al....+

Good Morning Mike Bryant;

It is about time you get your house completed and come back an share your wealth of knowledge with us.

Mike I was holding a trued Remington, a Stiller Predator, and a Pierce T1 all at the same time while talking on the phone with Jerry Stiller.

You will be pleased with the Pierce the primary cocking is off the bolt handle itself and action not the bolt handle strap.

The Stiller and Pierce, as with the Borden, are vastly superior to the Remington.

I still true Remingtons, only by request and recomend to all new customers they will be happier, have less agrivation and have a better action in the long run if they go with a custom.

Rustystud

 

[Mike Bryant]

The threaded ball looks about like a trailer hitch ball except threaded to fit in the rear of the bolt. The normal way of doing this was to thread a rod and screw it into the bolt threads. Then chuck the bolt body up in the lathe and turn the threaded rod down concentric with the bolt body. Then turn the bolt around and chuck it back up on what you just turned down. Every bolt is different and you wind up having to make another one after you have turned the rod down for concentricity several times. The threaded ball lets the bolt pivot and then you can move the back of the bolt back and forth to get the bolt body running true in the lathe. Not very often is the fixture on the other end of the bolt necessary. As long as the bolt body is within a thousandth or so front and back, you'll be fine when you face off the lugs and bolt face. The bolt bodies are not perfectly round especially on actions that have been shot a lot, so you have to use some judgement as to just how close to perfect you can get the bolt indicated. The main thing on the threaded ball is that it ends having to re-make the piece to hold the back of the bolt.

As to a rod to indicate in the center of the action, I like using bushings with the Gretan reamer. One bushing at the rear of the action, one just behind the locking lug area of the receiver. You can make your own bushings in various sizes from .700 to .706 by turning the outside in the lathe and then drilling out the inside hole and finishing it with a boring bar on the same setup. The inside hole needs to fit as tightly as you can get it. The Gretan bushings are 1/2" inside diameter. A 1/2" drill rod would work for the indicating rod.

We're still working on the house. We just lack building kitchen cabinets and some bathroom cabinets. After the countertops are installed then we'll be ready to install flooring and then once the carpet's are layed we'll be ready to move in. Been a long time coming and a wonder if we'll ever get finished.