Heresy preached regarding wind flags . . . .

[j mckinnie]

if

the title of the post ir read as written?you knew the answer to the flag question to start with?tra?tra?people shoot great without flags in their respected diciplines but are not shooting to the level of accuracy required to be competitive on the "BR" front .as stated if you dont like BR whats your beef go to the site that caters to your taste in shootin.

 

[Greyfox]

I think the confusion here is that "Benchrest Shooters" believe they are the only ones capable of accurately reading the wind, just because they use an outrageous number of flags. Other shooting disciplines all over the world have shooters very accurately reading the wind, with a limited number of flags. I'd venture to say that the flags take a lot of the skill out of it.

I know very well why "Benchrest" uses so many flags. There is really nothing about it to not understand. But when y'all start trashing a gun builder , and saying he's not capable, because He does not consider flags to be an accurate measure of his talent, then it is "you" that needs to come to terms as to what it takes to be a talented shooter.

This is of course my opinion and is what keeps me from shooting "Benchrest"

OK, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt about who's confused. I will also agree that those of us who critisized the gunsmith did so because we were assuming we were all talking about the same thing. When Montana Pete originally posted we mistakenly assumed he was talking about short range benchrest. Clearly he was talking about something else and his chosen 'smith is building a rifle to shoot a different discipline.

You seem to be operating under some of the same mistaken conclusions. I think it's safe to say that no one in the world can shoot short range benchrest with out flags to the same degree of accuracy as can be shot with them. If you think otherwise, you are simply ignorant. Reading wind without flags to shoot as accurately as is required in this game is simply not possible. If you competed in short range benchrest, you would come to understand this very quickly. If you continue to operate as only a keyboard shooter, it's doubtful you'll ever figure it out.

Rick

 

[LHSmith]

I am not sure the super-expensive ones that look a little like sci-fi spaceships are really called for. They can be VERY expensive. They make the shooter look "cool" to the other folks on the line, I suppose.

Pete/pat? Old proverb: "If you're looking to raise up a storm......don't expect smooth sailing."

How would "one" know if "high-tech" indicators worked when "one" apparently can't even grasp information from simple tails made from surveyor tape?
Just the title of the thread was bound to cause provocation.

 

[LHSmith]

TRA-
WITHOUT the ability to read conditions at varying points across the course the resulting scores would be a matter of luck.......It would be a game of shoot and HOPE.
No, you do NOT know why BR competition uses so many flags. You believe you must level the playing field, because you are unwilling to commit the time and resources it takes to master condition reading.
Shortrange BR is worldwide .....and there are "personnal flags" used at these IBS sanctioned matches in other countries.

 

[TRA]

1. This was posted on the "General Discussion" forum.

2. I don't care what "Benchrest Shooters" do

3. The presumption that you "Benchrest Shooters" are better at shooting and accuracy, because, of all the flags you use is nuts.

4. I just replied to those that bashed the guy because of his statements about flag use.

5. It's my choice to shoot any discipline I wish, so where do you get off bashing me?

6. All I did was state my dislike for the the presumption of the necessity of having so many flags, and MY CHOICE to not shoot it.

7. Maybe after y'all have shot, Long Range, F-Class, Service Rifle, High-Power, etc., etc., You would have a better understanding of what I said.

8. If ultimate accuracy is all that matters, then why does "BENCHREST" have rules. Would not the flags fall under equipment rules? Why don't you just shoot through a pipe?


Once again for the slow readers, I do not care what you do, and I shoot other disciplines, does that mean I have lessor abilities than you??????????

Boyd, I never said shooting an agg was easy, what I said was having so many flags may take some of the "skill of Reading" the wind out of it. Reading wind is an art form when you have no flag to look at, flags take most of that out of it, you still have to know what to do with it.

Few can really accurately read the wind with out flags, "Benchrest" has decided to use tools to do it, and that's your call. I've made mine.

 

[milanuk]

...and I shoot other disciplines, does that mean I have lesser abilities than you???

You've been around this forum long enough (since 2005, apparently)... you know the answer to that one

 

[Butch Lambert]

TRA,
Monte, who just posted above is one of the very good FClass and long range shooters in these United States. He picks a few tidbits from our BR discipline and we some of his. Does this make his discipline any better or worse. No I don't think so.
What is your rating in your discipline or do you do any competition shooting?
Butch

 

[Stonewall]

Tra

"what I said was having so many flags may take some of the "skill of Reading" the wind out of it. Reading wind is an art form when you have no flag to look at, flags take most of that out of it, you still have to know what to do with it. "



If that's what you actually think then you should shoot a few short range Benchrest matches .
Talk to a few shooters before hand and I'm sure that a proper rifle etc will be found.

The flags are not only the only wind indicator as in other competitions but it's just that there are a lot more.


It's all shooting and I believe that if you try a few short range matches you will enjoy this and that the experiance will add to your skill and knowledge.



This is NOT an attack just a comment ! )chill(



Glenn

 

[TRA]

Butch, What would it matter. Most of you have your views and someones ability is pointless.Whenever someone goes against the grain here, they are automatically attacked by the pit bull squad.

REALLY, would it matter if I set records or not? Keep in mind it was the others that attacked me, all I stated was my opinion, I attacked no one.

And I have no need to borrow any equipment as I have plenty of my own. A person makes decisions based on a lot of things, Sometimes attitudes can also make up a persons mind.

Y'all cannot bash someone into your sport. Some of you need some skin thickener

 

[Butch Lambert]

TRA,
You have a very thin skin. It doesn't take much to get your goat. Have you ever read your post a second time? If you will, you will understand some of the socalled flack that you have received. I think Montana Pete and his smith Jim See are good guys and they are welcome here.
We do have rules for windflags. They must be below a line from below the top of your shooting bench to the bottom of the target frame. They must not interfere with your neighbors flags. If you choose, you can use no flags and just look straight at your target. If you don't use or like flags, then just concentrate on your shooting. Do you feel that I slighted you? Read my post again and tell me where I attacked you. You refer to the other shooting disciplines and what they do so I thought you would expound on that.
What if I said that it was unfair to have a coach and spotter to help you on your windage and comeups? We don't allow that.
Butch

 

[mwezell]

TRA, Wind reading is a vital part of the benchrest sport. Flags are tools with which to do just that. There is NO way to read wind down range ACCURATELY, that does not involve some type of device that gives information back to the shooter in real time. Wind reading IS a skill, but if all you depend on is the wind in your face along with the grass and trees, you WILL NOT be able to be competitive in BR consistently. This is not an attack, but it does come from someone who shoots benchrest. Kentucky windage won't cut it in benchrest. If benchrest were about guessing when to pull the trigger(and sometimes it is), maybe you can prove me wrong. Why not come to a match and show us this "art". I will be very open to learning this skill as wind reading, given equally good equipment(or even close), is the MOST important aspect of benchrest. BR is a game about precision and accuracy. Neither of which can be fully realized without flags. Without flags it becomes purely a game of chance and has nothing to do with getting the most that we can get from our equipment or our shooting ability.--Mike

 

[Butch Lambert]

Mike, You are a lot smoother than I.
Butch

 

[Greyfox]

I could be mistaken, but I'm guessing you have looked on a couple of my replies as attacks. I have reread both and while I strongly disagree with your ideas, there are no personal attacks here. It is clear that you are ignorant of what it takes to shoot the most accurate rifles ever built. Ignorance is no crime. All of us are ignorant about many things. But, this is a benchrest web site. We are only interested in what it takes to shoot accurately and most of us are primarily interested in point blank benchrest. You've been offered the use of equipment and invited to matches. If you chose to lay aside your prejudices you could learn quite a bit in one visit, but it appears you're rather hold on to your preconceived notions.

I come here to learn from the mistakes as well as the correct actions of others. There is no reason to make all the mistakes on my own, althoug sometimes it seems like I do. If I am not going to listen and learn, I'm wasting my time here. I'd be better off sitting on my front porch drinking a beer (come to think of it, that sounds like a good idea).

It's your choice to either listen and learn something or simply complain about being attacked and remain ignorant. We'd love to help, but I've learned over my lifetime that you just can't help some folks.

Rick

 

[jackie schmidt]

Various Disciplines

I have always believed that every shooting discipline has some unique quality, (or quirk), that ups the anti and makes winning difficult. Some require a certain athletic ability, some astute hand eye coordination, others, such as Benchrest, are extremely equipment oriented.
Often at the Range, Shooters will come over to where I am and check out things. Many will look through the scope, and marvel at the small groups. Others, (especially if I have my Rail Gun on the Bench), will say, "that doesn't seem fair". What I try to explain is that every other shooter also has one of these, and you must simply be the best you can to stay ahead.

I also try to explain that the Modern Benchrest Rifle has evolved into a very singular purpose piece of equipment. In it's inviroment, it will beat anything else. That is what it is designed to do. But, take it out of it's inviroment, and it becomes a rather cumberson, and often useless, for any other purpose.

I have often said that a good analogy is a NHRA Pro Stock Car. We marvel at its ability to cover the 1/4 mile in 6.50 seconds at 211 mph. In it's inviroment, and under the rules governing it, nothing will beat it. But, I doubt you would want to use it to make local grocery runs with the kids in tow.

To be competitive in Benchrest, certain things are required. Having a Rifle that is capable of sub .200 agging capability is a must, bench equipment that allows you to make the best use of the Rifle is another, and of course, being able to decypher conditions is paramount. This, of course, requires a good set of windflags, and the ability to understand what they are telling you.

In my opinion, Benchrest is no more diffucult to win at than any other Shooting Discipline. Just different.............jackie

 

[TRA]

All of you that are shooting your mouths off should go back to page 1 and see who said what, and who was bashing a gunsmith who turned out to be Jim S. He took quite a beating until about post 24 where he stood up for himself. then the pack came after me.

Short range "Benchrest" is the only competition that "I" am aware of that allows the wind flags to be used as they do. So be it.

I have only said time and time again that I choose not to participate that way.

Keep in mind boys, that bashing those that shoot the other way, includes quite a fair amount of highly respected marksmen.

Tell the AMU that their just p~~~in in the wind, unless they use a truck load of flags. I am sure that you will find that the vast majority of competitive shooters world wide have to read the wind the hard way, and that's whatever the range hoists up, period.

Just go back and read who was throwing the first rocks and at who and why.

 

[JJ-IA]

Jackie,
The ignorant should be educated, trolls should be banned.

 

[Charles E]

There is a lot of nonsense in this thread. I do like Jackie's post (#54) I'd note his pro stock race car would be equally poor at running the 24 hours at Le Mans-- a race, but a different kind of race.

On Windflags. What seems to get missed is that flags are used for different purposes. For people that shoot fast, they are used to determine "how much should I hold off?" Rarely for "should I shoot now?" (but often for "should I start shooting all five shots now"), occasionally for "don't shoot now." For people who pick each shot, it is more "should I shoot now" with just a little bit of "how much should I hold off."

There is a level of information given by flags that is rarely available from range flags, or for me, anyway, mirage. But sometimes mirage shows things the flags miss. Do I use it? You bet. Why give up valuable information?

Windflags give information difficult to get from mirage and range flags, and meet the "did you win" test. Anybody know anybody who won a big (benchrest) match not using personal flags?

On gunsmiths. Building BR rifles is as much about "what assumptions can you make" as getting setups and hitting the "on" button. There is an old saw about reloading "I do ten things. Three mater, I just don't know which three." Bit of that in building rifles, too The smith can also make (after a few discrete questions) some assumptions about the customer. If he doesn't reload, we should stop right now. Does s/he know about non-SAAMI chambers, neck turning, etc. Safety issues. How about other benchrest loading /load development techniques?

Also about materials. Is everything in an action apt to be true? What matters most? It takes a lot of time to do the measurements, many require setups, mandrels, etc. You can make a certain set of assumptions about a custom, made-for-benchrest action. Should you? I guess some do, some don't, and there will be a difference in price. How to most wisely spend the dollar is based on the materials to be used as well as the level of accuracy desired. Does any smith check *everything* in a build? Maybe, but I doubt it. Just too expensive. Knowing what to check is (1) experiential, and (2) based on a certain objective. "Most accurate" is not a clear objective (see below).

Etc.

For all of you who think short-range benchrest rifles are "the most accurate in the world." About 10 years ago, someone put this forward. I proposed a match. Five targets at 100 yards, five targets at 1,000 yard. All benchrest. The agg winner was the match winner. Oops.

As Jackie said, the sport has exacting, narrow constraints.