Heresy preached regarding wind flags . . . .

M

Montana Pete

Guest
Two months ago I worked with a custom riflemaker to design a benchrest rifle.

It took us over an hour, and during that time we talked of a number of BR related topics.

I asked about wind flags. This shooter was somewhat skeptical of them. He has his own range, and stated that he has one homemade wind flag about halfway downrange. It is just a simple piece of cloth.

I got the impression -- not that he sees no value in wind flags -- but that he believes their use and praise easily gets to be excessive.

I don't know too much about this. Thanks to messages here on the forum, I have made my own simple wind flags and tried to get familiar with them. I am not sure the super-expensive ones that look a little like sci-fi spaceships are really called for. They can be VERY expensive. They make the shooter look "cool" to the other folks on the line, I suppose.

I'd like to get a few other opinions.

Thanks --
 
What Ray said..... but stronger.

This guy has never SEEN real accuracy. Get another gunsmith.

al
 
I agree with your gunsmith. Wind flags aren't important at all.......unless you actually intend to hit what you're shooting at.

What Al said.....this guy doesn't have a clue about accuracy.

Rick
 
Ever drop a HOT potatoe? That is what you should be doing with this --------smith. You'd be better served finding a known BR gunsmith in your area, just ask for names on here and you will probably have a list of recommended choices.

Dan
 
Why would you choose a gunsmith to build a specialty rifle for a sport that he has obviously never participated in? Have you been to a match? If not, by all means, go. They will be nice to you and you will learn a LOT.
 
I surely wish the folks I shoot against had his opinion.
 
Pete ...

Montana Pete said:
Two months ago I worked with a custom riflemaker to design a benchrest rifle.

It took us over an hour, and during that time we talked of a number of BR related topics.

I asked about wind flags. This shooter was somewhat skeptical of them. He has his own range, and stated that he has one homemade wind flag about halfway downrange. It is just a simple piece of cloth.

I got the impression -- not that he sees no value in wind flags -- but that he believes their use and praise easily gets to be excessive.

I don't know too much about this. Thanks to messages here on the forum, I have made my own simple wind flags and tried to get familiar with them. I am not sure the super-expensive ones that look a little like sci-fi spaceships are really called for. They can be VERY expensive. They make the shooter look "cool" to the other folks on the line, I suppose.

I'd like to get a few other opinions.

Thanks --
Click to expand...

Opinion?

I agree with Ray, Al, Dan, and Boyd. Go find yourself another gunsmith.

Here's an Excellent smith: http://www.stevensaccuracy.com/.

And, here's my vote for a Great flag builder: http://www.brflags.com/. Start with one or two flags. No need to buy a handful at once.

Their products have been proven on the competitive field. :)
 
In the first match I shot, on the first target, I ignored my wind flags. At 200 yards, totalling ignoring a switch, the bullet impact moved over 2 inches. I have paid careful attention ever since. They don't make a difference shooting whitetail, but when all 5 bullets need to be in the same hole, they are essential.

FWIW
 
OK, IMO this has to be said......


But first, a setup.

I'm a foundation contractor. A REALLY good one in a field that's currently way over-served. In my area we currently have three times as many foundation contractors as we have foundations to do. What this means is, we have lots of folks trying to build their own houses. Professional Home Builders are starving because every Tom Dick and Harry figures that "since the subcontractors are all waiting around..." they can pick and choose from the best subs and get their house done "right" just like a builder would do.


WRONG!!

Builders exist for a reason, because they know how to make good decisions. I have worked for builders only for the past 25yrs for this very reason. Now I find myself out bidding against 5 other guys and dealing directly with homeowners who HAVE NO CLUE WHAT QUESTIONS TO ASK!!!

A homeowner CANNOT pick good subcontractors because he simply has no background, no frame of reference.

It's frustrating....... and furthermore, a GOOD subcontractor typically charges at the same rate as a mediocre one. Sure some of the real hackers are a little lower priced, working under the table for beer money, but they DO suckalot and you have no recourse when your entire home is set up badly........ but across the boards 3/4 of the legally licensed and bonded subcontractors in any trade and any area are within dollars of each other. And generally within this group are specialists in certain areas, and people who are always booked because of their quality. The QUALITY guys are booked generally by the builders, the guys who KNOW quality and can recognize excellence.

But anyway, the point of this is, you generally pay LESS in the long run for good work!!! Builders exist because they can build you a better home cheaper than you can do it yourself.

Think about that real hard.

The realio-trulio Bench Rest Gunsmiths who advertise here on BRC are generally similarly priced to the gun fixers! But they're SPECIALISTS.......... they build accuracy. REAL repeatable accuracy.

And, think real hard about THIS......... even if they ARE 20% higher, and even if you have to pay to ship/ensure the stupid thing all over the country, is it worth it? Is it worth it to use someone who actually knows what he's doing? Because MOST IMPORTANTLY, you the client don't even know what questions to ask..... A typical homeowner has no idea how to set the grades on a site for a foundation. A typical shooter has NO idea what goes into a truly accurate rig. The typical guy reading internet shooting sites has been driving cars, even fixing them for 20-30-40-50yrs, but does this mean he knows diddle about making a 1/4 mile drag car motor? Does the average shooter, even the average gunsmith really know about hyper-accurate rifles???


NO!


find a BR gunsmith of you want an accurate SYSTEM....

Only with an accurate rifle, a rifle that shows you the wind, can one benefit from the use of flags.





rant


off


whewwww




al
 
Just

out of curiosity what confifuration and components did this ass kicking rifle incorporate.With no flags I'm thinking the lazer beam pulse banger?:confused::confused:
jim
 
I really don't know an awful lot about this subject. I am a senior citizen, and probably will not live long enough to be a great expert.

It is really difficult to get into all this if there are no real BR matches in one's area. The only matches I am aware of are some sporter postal matches at one club.

I do have one question. If you are in a match, can't you just watch the next guy's wind flags? Practicing by yourself, of course, you would need some.

As I said, I made some out of plastic tape and broomsticks. It is going to take some time before I get his all figured out.

I don't feel too bad about the gunsmith. He does some very nice rifles. Since I can't find any BR matches in my area, It is somewhat questionable whether I will be able to do much more than just enjoy a few afternoons at the range with my new rifle-- It will not be until Spring of 2011.

I am not going to describe much more about the gunsmith or the rifle, since it appears this is more a lynching.

I do think some of you could be a little more civil to a senior citizen who is trying to understand all this.

You may be good shots, but some of you could learn some civility and manners.
 
Pete, as one "senior citizen" to another, and one who had to give up competitive shooting because my eyesight is going to a warm place in a hand basket faster than I'd like, the advice you're being given is sound. You may not appreciate the perceived lack of respect and deference, but the advice is being given with the best of intentions.

All that being said reading windflags is an art or science that I never did master, but those who have kicked my tail all over the place. The wind does strange things to bullets and unless you have flags that you can see from your shooting position, meaning with as little head movement as possible to see maybe three or four flags out to 100 yards, you'll NEVER shoot little groups except by accident. As I've been told more than once, "even a blind hog finds corn once in awhile.

The gunsmith you talked to may well be a nice guy and might build nice looking rifles, but that doesn't mean he understands the intricacies of building a BR quality rifle. He may well be able to build a rifle that will knock rodents into the next county, but most factories can do that as well with a little bedding and load help. As Al pointed out the difference in price between a true BR gunsmith and a guy who can fit and chamber a barrel is likely not much if anything, but the results likely will be large.

Naturally this all depends on your ability at the trigger. Presently I'm lucky to be able to shoot half inch groups because I can't see better than about ± 1/4" at 100 yards. One eye is only semi-decorative at best so flags have to be in the scope's field of view which is hard to do with a true BR scope with a small field of view.

If you're just shooting on your own range for your own entertainment and edification, some pieces of rebar and a roll of surveyor's tape can be made to give decent information for not much money. BUT, WIND FLAGS ARE IMPORTANT FOR SHOOTING SMALL GROUPS.

Along with Al I extend my best wishes, but as many people who get answers they don't like might be asked, "if you didn't want answers, why'd you ask the question?" Just because you (and your chosen gunsmith apparently) disagree with the answers/opinions of some pretty knowledgeable shooters who've taken their time to offer their best advice, doesn't mean that they're not being civil or that there's a lynching or will be.
 
Taking BR advice

In seeking advice, my buddy "Col. Billy" Stevens once said when you are given advice....Your thought should be

"Does he win"' 'nuf said. ;)

I'm going to write a BR Primer on Col. Stevens "ONE LINERS" some day, ought to be a best seller.

"Snuffy"
 
Larry E-- Thanks for a great note. I agree with you, I need to go back and read this thread and get all the meat out of the suggestions.

However, you suggest I am being oversensitive and considering wise advice as insulting. Larry, here's what showed up this morning-- tell me if you think this is a respectful answer to my question -- out of curiosity what confifuration and components did this ass kicking rifle incorporate.With no flags I'm thinking the lazer beam pulse banger?

I suppose the appropriate answer would be something like this-- "buddy, you tell me about the worthless piece of junk you shoot, and then I will give you all the details of the rifle I have ordered out."

Naturally, this sort of bitchiness is not getting anyone anywhere, is it?

Larry, next spring my rifle will be delivered and I will take it out and shoot it. I have every confidence it will be a very satisfactory purchase. All these speculations that my gunsmith is incompetent are ridiculous if no one even knows the name of the gunsmith.

Next spring we will find out with some fired targets how the rifle does. That's the only way to determine if the rifle is good or not, right?

Thank you for your advice, and thanks to several in the thread who endeavored to give me some valuable information. I will go back and re-read all this a time or two and I am sure it will help me. As for the smart alecks with their snotty comments, well you find a few of them on every forum.

Larry, as one senior citizen to another, if the problem is cataracts, you might consider surgery. My wife lost 80 pct of the vision out of her right eye, and after cataract surgery she could not believe the difference.



Best to all-- thanks--
 
Pete I wish the problem with my eyes was as simple as cataracts, I'd have them removed and be good to go.

I think that the comments about the gunsmith were based on his obvious lack of knowledge about Benchrest shooting. I know of no one who's ever shot BR competitively who has that opinion about windflags. As for some of the, uh, testier comments, some folks fingers work faster than they ought to. Been there done that.

All that matters is if you're happy with the rifle and the way it shoots btw.
 
Pete, please remember that this Web Site is first, and foremost, dedicated to extreme accuracy. Many responders do not know the circumstances involved when answering questions and giving advice. I have read many post by you, but have learned more about your own personal circumstances from this thread than any before.

It is a natural reaction for Benchrest Shooters to seem dumbfounded by anybody involved in shooting to not understand the importance of windflags. But, more times than not, the non uderstanding is born of ignorance. As I have always been taught, ignorance is not a crime. It simply means lack of knowledge. My desire is that Shooters log onto Benchrest.com to gain knowledge.

Please bear with us as we try to communicate our replys in as factual, and civil, manner, as possible.............jackie, Super Moderator
 
Jackie--

Thanks for the sensible and helpful note. To be sure, I am ignorant. My rifle will not be ready before spring of 2011, and so I have that long to try to eliminate some of my ignorance. You are right, I do not know very much about all this. Perhaps I can purchase a couple of wind flags and try to figure them out. It does not help that I do not know a soul in BR shooting, or even know of any matches that I could attend. That may be one reason I get really angy at the "smart aleck" types of responses. It was good that you mentioned you have read my postings and are getting to know something about me. I hope this was not an indirect put-down. I think some of this understanding of people really helps the communication process.

My goal is for the first summer I have this rifle -- the summer of 2011 -- is to just learn the rifle. I have to set up my workshop for 6mm Norma BR, get a supply of Lapua cases, work up loads, and -- on and on. Then fire the new rifle a couple of hundred rounds and break it in. This is probably about all a person can do in three or four months.

In 2012 I will be about 71 years old. However, I don't see why I can't attempt to enter an event or two and give all this a try. It does help me that a lot of people are polite like you are, and respectful of questions, regardless of whether the questions are considered "insider--in the know" questions or just novice "learn" questions.

Best as always--
 
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