Here's what happened

I love you Mike!...

Per Mike Marcelli...
"Seriously, if you don't like the reports, if they are too non-scientific for your tender sensibilities, if you think we are all to dumb to objectively explore this subject, why don't you get off your dead ass, define some experiments, order the required equipment and obtain your own results. But, if you are not going to offer anything constructive, do us a favor and keep you pie hole shut."

And what was it you offered constructively? Oh, you called me an as****, I guess that's constructive! I simply summarized what Wilbur and others wrote.If you can't see that then I can't help you!

Wilbur said:The groups at the new setting were still vertical but smaller. Another 1/8th turn and the vertical vanished for practical purposes. We then removed the tuner and the rifle fired three groups straight without vertical.
I said:Tuners will remove vertical....but not always.

Wilbur said:When the tuner was removed, the groups were vertical. Gene stated, and I agreed, that the vertical could be tuned out with the load. Right there I made an assumption that I didn't need to see the other rifle fall from tune to conclude that a tuner can be useful. That assumption may or may not be flawed but I think for now that "not flawed" is the case
I said:Tuners work on all rifles...but not always.

Shelly Davidson said:The tuner body must be 100% locked to the barrel. I don't even feel that a jam nut, on the barrel, behind the tuner is really sufficient. And I also don't like pinch screws. I feel like a tuner body need to lock firmly, at the muzzle, to work well.
I said: Locking down the tuner parts helps...but not always.

Wilbur said:Gene had the "add weight till it works" tuner on the rifle with one of six washers installed. The washers weighed about 2.6 ounces each (see attached picture). We shot groups and added washers along the way. The rifle grouped poorly across the entire effort.
I said:Making an adjustment in the tuner will affect group size...but not always.

Wilbur said:Rifles do exist that refuse to drop out of tune but we have all seen rifles setting the world on fire just before they hit the wall - out of tune for the lack of an alternate explanation.
I said:Some rifles shoot better than others...but not always.

I may have read something wrong in what's being posted here, but at least I AM reading it - which is more than some of the rest of you out there are doing! ---- 4Mesh is right!
 
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Chill out

I'm sitting on the fence.If tuners are the be all & end all I'll get 1.Why get into a s**t fight if you are a believer convince me.On paper with bullits .Its obvious that some do & some don't believe.
Take it easy, good shooting Jim
 
Good report Wilbur,

I don't mean to sounds like I am being critical here, just a genuine thought.

I can totally see that a tuner can tune the barrel to the load rather than tuning the load to the barrel in the time honoured fashion. That being the case it is logical that the rifle will go out of tune in the same manner it does if load tuning and at the same DA reading. The tuner now needs to be reset instead of the load reset.

So you are a little unsure that the rifle is tuned so you take more ammo to the line to test with and tweak the tuner settings while on the clock.

If you are unsure the rifle will be in tune and feel that with increased DA you will need to make an adjustment on the line then why not just take two loads to the line, make a quick test (no mechanical messing about) and determine what seems to be shooting better and then go to the record with the ammo block that contains the preferred load ??

Seems like you end up in the same place, same amount of ammo, same number of shots fired only without the need to be messing with the mechanics of the rifle on the line and on the clock.

Used with the "system" whereby the DA is checked and the tuner tweaked to suit you would ideally avoid the setting changing on the line but then the same holds true if tuning the load using the DA checking system to determine where the load needs to be.

What am I missing with respect to the tangible benefit a lightweight tuner offers over load tuning only ?

Seems to me the muzzle stopping approach so that the load change with ambient conditions would be a non issue is the real area where tuners would offer a big gain, if in fact that is do-able with a centrefire. Hmmmmm ......... I see that Bill just bumped his muzzle stopping posts to the top, I have no tuner experience but I'd have to agree that muzzle stopping is the way tuners are really going to make any real impact on aggs in the long run.

Bryce
I agree with your post 100% Bryce.
Almost no one takes more than one load to the line unless its during practice or the warm-up match, and that should tell us something.
IMO Taking two or more loads to the line has a big advantage over using a tuner to accomplish the same task. Like when that 15-second dream condition rolls in when the tuner guys have their bolts out and tuners unlocked at the time. I’ve never wanted to disable my rifle in the middle of a match, but maybe others would be willing to do so?

For me a tuner will have value when its just a fixed weight that has been proven to -widen- the loading window a bit.
It doesn’t need to stop the muzzle, or even be perfect, we just need proof that it actually does something beneficial on a wide range of rifles.
I hope it happens because then everyone can go back to life as before tuners with an easier to keep in tune rifle.
Personally I believe moly already accomplishes this to a smaller degree for me, but that’s a different topic.

Jim
 
The one thing that I observed from my slight tuner experience was that with a tuner, the rifle seemed less sensitive to temperature, requiring less tending to stay in tune. (Maybe the bullet release was at a less inclined part of the muzzle tracking curve, making differences in velocity less critical.) Also, I did an experiment that involved taping a relatively light weight flush with the muzzle at 6 o'clock. In that case, the weight did the same thing for removing vertical as .3-.4 gr. of powder. At the time I was using a 62 grain bullet at the upper node with a barrel that requires more powder to make a given amount of pressure. It was handy not to have to stand on my head, so to speak, to put the extra powder into the case. One might get the impression that a big budget or a lathe are needed to play in this sand box (tuners). This is not the case. BTW I really don't care who believes what. I AM grateful for all the information that is reported in this forum. Thanks to all who have shared their experiences.
 
Gene,

Calfee has said that the stiffer the barrel, the less weight required to tune it. That rimfile tuner you hung on your barrel may have been just TOO much.

Jim
 
Standing on the outside looking in.

How do these "tuners" differ in functionality from the patented Browning Arms "BOSS"?
 
Perhaps I wrote poorly

I am entirely convinced that an adjustable tuner is capable of eliminating vertical shot dispersion - period the end.
 
Waldo

The are in respects the same animal. You advance or retract a given weight on the barrel to change the harmonics, and the moment of bullet exit.
The single big selling point of the Browning Boss is you can buy a box of a specific ammunition, say Winchester 150 grn 308 silvertips, and tune the Rifle to shoot that box as well as it will. Of course, if you change the ammunition, (bullet weight, brand, etc.), you have to tune the Rifle for that brand........jackie
 
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Simple or simple?

do think tuners work but I think they need to be simple.
the one I hope works is just one piece of aluminum that
will slide along the end of the barrel.

Now I know we aren't talking apples & apples here, but a of fistful of years ago when I started tweaking my 1200 yard guns, all I used was a heavy Palma-style clamp on foresight block running on a turned barrel end. Sure, it worked for that application, but It was a tad fussy loosening off the clamps a shade, tapping the block a whisker, clamping it down and then recording how far from the crown it was with my trusty Starrett depth micrometer.

I reckon its heaps easier & far more repeatable to be able to spin the weight on a thread.
 
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