Here's Jackies Targets

333smitty

333smitty

Tomball Gun Club
R. G. Robinett


Yes, and Terry Meyer and I held that set of targets in our grubby hands . . . and, using three different scoring devices, measured them . . . HHhhMmmmmmm . . .

Following receipt of the pictures of the targets, I just 'HAD' to have them to measure for my self - Jackie was kind enough to part with them, and trust them to my care.

Upon receipt, they were measured, using two 'official' (group) scoring devices, and the 'hillbilly' (calipers minus .298" - the average bullet-hole diameter) by four individuals, one of whom had never seen a group measuring device.

His result was most interesting: following some instruction, and advice to place the thirty caliber reticle over several individual bullet-holes - in order to see how the holes SHOULD 'fit' the reticle - he was turned loose with the targets, the device (our 'ol River City group measuring tool), and an ink pen - his result was within 0.004" of the range measured 0.1118, (which, for future reference, I will round up to .112 ): that Agg. came out to a rounded-up 0.107!

Another teaser:
of our 11 measurements, the largest Aggregate was 0.122. Following the tally, the measurer stated, "I sure didn't want to give him anything." Note, the scorer should neither give, nor take. Even this AGG was just over the default protest value (0.009") required to either enlarge,or, reduce the size of a posted target or, AGG. I will, if I can obtain some help, post a new thread, including the pics which I initially received - Virg can you post them? BTW - ALL of our measurements (AGGS) were within +/- 0.010" of the range measured .112".


Two conclusions cam be drawn from this experience: With all the banter about group shooting being more precise than score shooting, I'd say that just the opposite is correct: the outcome of a score event is MUCH more precise and CLEAR than the outcome at a group event. In a discipline where precision is the watch-word, how can the discrepancy, between a range measured AGGREGATE and the Records Committee AGG., amount to over 0.040"? In short, at group events, there is seldom REAL winner . . . how would you like to loose HoF points by just a couple of measly thou? This points out the need to 'fix' an antiquated scoring system, long out performed by our equipment . . . or, we could just give everyone within 0.01" a first place trophy! When it comes to precision measurement of targets/Aggs., human error & judgement need to go the way of the Dodo . . .

The second conclusion: Jackie Schmidt's range measured .112" AGG IS the smallest OFFICIAL Aggregate ever fired during any REGISTERED 5-shot, 5-match, 100 Yard event! This is inarguable . . . a truly GREAT shooting exhibition. Well done, Jackie! RG


Target #1

T1.jpg


Target #2

T2.jpg


Target #3

securedownload.jpg


Target #4

T4.jpg


Target #5

T5.jpg
 
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Sorry, I had to delete Vic's first posting, (super moderator) because Vic accidentally posted a duplicate target. There were three comments already, please repost your comments.

These are the photos that were sent to Randy Robinet that prompted him to want to see them in person.

When looking, keep in mind, this was shot with a 30 caliber.......jackie
 
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I for one would like to see pics without anything obstructing the groups. I've shot my share of small groups with a 30BR in competition, and think I could get a better idea without anything in the way.
 
Hal, we tried to put the cailpers with a minute amount of white showing, so shooters could get a scale. Maybe I can get Geramo to take some shots without the calipers.

Or, read Randy's comments. He had them in his hands.....jackie
 
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JACKIE,
some very nice shooting....no doubt about it.
as other have said, you have behaved like a true gentleman in this "event".
no one can take the results away.....
your behavior and your shooting are things the rest of us can strive for.
thanks

mike in co
 
Fine shooting I guess shooting a 30 you could not resist putting them in the center.
Congratulations once again Jackie.
 
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actually without the dot to aim for, i'm suprised he got so close to the middle.......
lol
mike in co

Dick Grosbier said:
Fine shooting I guess shooting a 30 you could not resist putting them in the center.
Congratulations once again Jackie.
Click to expand...
 
Can someone give me the measurement of the black square? I'm at work and need that measurement to scale the pictures so I can measure them.
OK, I'm bored and I've done alot less entertaining things.
Thanks in advance.
Tony
 
To use the pictures with On Target program:
1. right click on the picture
2. save picture as
3. pick save location and file name
4. open paint
5. the picture is too large and must be cropped for On Target
6. go to select and drag a box around the group and black square
7. cut and paste this as a new file and your ready to use it in On Target
I hope this works for anyone.

http://www.ontargetshooting.com/download.html

By the way, I came up with .1074 agg with the inside of the black box scaled at .5".
My biggest discrepancy was on target #1. I measured alot smaller.
Using the .153 on target #1 gave me .1172 agg.
 
Tony, the #1 target is the largest, when using an official scoring device, I get .160, because to the lower left there is a smudge of black that must be accounted for when using the reticle to find the fartherest edge.

I think the originol range measurement was .152 on that target.
 
The amazing part of all this were the conditions in which Jackie shot these targets in. 25mph wasnt it?? Way awesome sir!!!!! Lee
 
Great shooting, Jackie.

Fantastic groups....maybe the demise of the 6PPC? I still have to believe this may be due to the low frequency waves the government is broadcasting!
Scott Smallwood secretly keeps the inside of his ballcap lined with tin foil!
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
Or maybe Randy should be DNA checked to see if he is really human!
WOW!
ba
 
bryan said:
Fantastic groups....maybe the demise of the 6PPC? I still have to believe this may be due to the low frequency waves the government is broadcasting!
Scott Smallwood secretly keeps the inside of his ballcap lined with tin foil!
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
Or maybe Randy should be DNA checked to see if he is really human!
WOW!
ba
Click to expand...

Yea. Someone should check Randy and his employees.....
I finally got some .308 112's. WOW. Do these shoot. I could not believe it.
I thought, the best bullet was a Hottenstein(sorry Lowell. I only got 5 to go in the same hole. For a range record.)
But a BIB 112. I got 6 in the same hole. Well, it was not during a match. It was kinda rainy. Well, I got stupid and tried some other 30's. That hole was huge......

Sorry Jackie. I strayed a little. Following the Thread.
 
Jackie,

Do you know what the seperate measurements were from the record committee? I would like to know if there was a big descrepancy between any.

Kevin
 
Amazing groups, Jackie. Very well done!
It's "typical" to my groups, I can make it all day long...in my dream. (grin)
seb.
 
Any one of these groups are very good and the agg is amazing. Well done Jackie - hopefully one day I can shoot something like this.

But I will say that, from looking at the attached photos, it seems as though the measuring was extremely lenient. The groups definitely appear to be bigger than the numbers on the calliper. But I am looking at this through scanned jpeg images...

Further, one needs to mention that everyone who has shot a record has to go through the same scrutiny which I think are highly respected experts at measuring groups. Which is why they got the responsibility.

So I would ask Jackie - what do you think is the reason for the differential between your measurements and that of the records committee?
 
Chris, you are asking the wrong person. You should ask the people who initially measured the targets last July 4th in Midland.

For some reason, there is a acceptence that "they just did not know what they were doing". I have been told personally by the Match Director that they took the utmost care in measuring those targets, because they knew they were on a record run. I say "they" because more than one person was involved.

I guess in all of this, that fact is forgotten.

As most know, aside from just saying, "it was a good agg", I said very little about the targets untill I actually received them.

We placed the calipers on the targets just for scale. If you look close, you can see that we placed a small amount of "paper" on at least one side so as not to give the wrong impression. Also, all of our other measurements are done with an official scoring device.........jackie
 
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