Help me out here.

J

Joe Haller

Guest
In this month's issue of Precision Shooting magazine, Dick Wright said something to the effect that he could not understand why new shooters to benchrest seem to have a preference for Score Matches over Group Matches.

Over the years at our Club, we have shot both. The only time we had good participation was when we had Team Competition while shooting group matches, using local rules. During that time we had as many as 55 shooters in our local matches.

We went to NBRSA sanctioned matches, using moving backers and our attendance dropped to an average of about 10 shooters. We tried IBS Hunter score matches and got about the same results.

At that time I blamed the lack of interest on the higher cost of custom rifles. The whole centerfire BR thing died out in the early 1990s.

In 1999 we started rimfire BR and now averaging about 20 shooters per match. (25 shot for SCORE matches) We are not affiliated with any of the National Associations and use local rules that seem to fit with what our local shooters have for equipment.

What we have now in Rimfire, is not as good as Centerfire was when we had TEAM competition with local rules. But: Twice as good as our old (sanctioned) centerfire matches.

Now my question for you is: WHAT WORKS AT YOUR CLUB?
Or, what does not work at your club?

Sanctioned Matches?
Local Rules?
Group Matches?
Score Matches?
Range Facilities?
High Cost Awards?
Low Cost Awards?
Shooting Related Prizes?
Team Competition?
Food served during the match?
Bring your own lunch?
Camping on the range, or nearby?
Distance to Motels & Restaurants?
Other things that work or don't work for you?

Joe Haller (Mr. Frosty)
 
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Joe my opinion does not count, i don't shoot any matches but.......... I enjoy groups of 5 @ 50 yards. It does seem score shooters outnumber group shooters. Score shooters to me have an arrogant attitude toward group shooters. I don't never see any group shots posted by score shooters +why+?? I suspect score shooters will not group - seems strange to me but that is something i have deduced from being new and reading the boards.

just my honest view and not trying to "dis" anyone. joe
 
I have shot groups tsting guns for years and had fun. I just started shooting in competition and shot score the 1st day and group the next. Score was a blast!!! Score shooting is fun and that does not take away from group but I think I do prefer score now. Nothing against group but I think score is helping to get more into the sport and that is what we need so whatever gets people shooting and to the range.
 
We began holding sanctioned score matches at the end of 2009 and had our first full year this year. We have ten benches and averaged about 16-20 shooters in VFS, Factory and semi-custom classes total. The number one and two complaint from first timers who do not return is the pace of the match and the moving of equipment. Most of those guys shoot a lot of highpower and are used to dumping 80 rounds in 2hrs and then going home.
There are a few guys interested in group matches, but the moving backer system and the peripheral responsibility that goes along with it have kept sanctioned group matches from happening.
There is a club in the northwest corner of the state that holds occasional unregistered group matches and they get 15 or so shooters (and as many benches) per match. Many of those guys do not come to our matches for the reason listed above. If I had only one relay or if they were allowed to shoot all five record targets in one sitting (not necessarily in rapid succession, but without having to move their equipment between relays) they would attend.
I am certainly not implying that we need to change our ways, but that registered tournaments have some downsides in format which may lead to lower attendance. It may not be the discipline (group/score) itself.
Mike
 
Benchrest isn't for everyone. I think that's plain and simple. It is time consuming, meticulous, and takes good equipment. You have to have the "bug" for real accuracy, or you'll end up slinging lead someplace else. This is something you have to understand, it's just not for everyone. The IBS has tried Factory class, and AR class in an effort to raise participation, but I'm not sure any real sustainable gains have been realized. Many get the "bug", shoot for a few years, then realize for whatever reason it's not their cup-o-tea.

Score is fun, and for beginners is probably easier. Put a 30BR together and you're good to go. At 100 yards in fairly average conditions, the gun does the work. People like to do well and not end up at the bottom of the list, and this gives them that. Once you stretch out to 200 and 300 yards, the playing field is leveled and it aint as easy anymore.

And of course, a score shoot is easier to put on and that alone makes it popular. It's hard to get a dedicated target crew to run group matches.
 
savet06
I think you hit the nail on the head about the backer system for group shoots. I shoot 22 rimfire and have shot matches in American Rimfire Group, IR 5050 unlimited and 3 gun, and on line matches on another fourm. I like to shoot! All have been fun, win some-loose some. But I must admit that from a pure fun thing , shooting objects ( suspended golf balls - rocks ) at 100 yards with a rimfire or metal disks with a pistol at 50+ yards is more fun.
The 25 bull target is second for me because it is one shot -one hole in each bull - score the target. There is no need for special equipment for a movable backer to keep people honest about how many shots are in the group.
Just thinking out loud
Jim
 
Joe,

People are used to shooting at a bullseye target and a lot of them are intimidated when you tell them that we are going to shoot group. I've managed to convince a few... "Look dummy, how do you work up loads? Shooting groups, right?"

We run a few group matches each year and do it the same way we run the score matches... hang your own target and no moving backers. We have been blessed for years in having shooters that don't cheat which is obviously pretty easy in group. This keeps the cost and work involved in running a group match down and makes it affordable to guys shooting factory rifles, something we have encouraged from day one.

We shoot one agg, have coffee and donuts before the match and go to a bar for burgers and drinks after it's over. We try very hard to make the matches both fun and fair.

We give ten bucks and a match winner pin for first place and five bucks for second. The value of prizes has never been an issue... you win at our place and you done something. We have some very, very good shooters and some big egos have been damaged over the years.

The last couple of years a fellow who is severly handicapped has probably won more than anyone else at our place. He shoots from a wheel chair, one of those motorized things actually, and brings a slave (his wife) to place wind flags and do the heavy lifting. He consistently beats guys with HOF points and the one Super Shoot winner who competes here a lot.

We don't register the matches but follow the IBS and NBRSA rules quite closely, the exception being when one of the organizations make a dumb rule like outlawing tuners.

We just completed our twentith year of competition in Harrison and have next year's schedule already.

Dick Wright
 
Well, I think I can answer your question.
I have only been shooting for the past couple of years. I like both group and score, but I can remember when I first started out I like group better. The reason why was, it evened out the playing field. Our matches that we have bring super competitive shooters, and they are all shooting small groups. If you throw one shot out badly you’re out of the placing. Now in score, if you throw one round badly out you still have a chance on finishing high. To put it this way, a new shooter that is leaning how to dope the wind, and getting accustomed to setting up, and range commands just has a better chance at placing in a score match.

Let me see if I can explain it another way. Ok, an IBS hunter rifle target has a mothball from outside of the black to outside of the black of that circle measures .497. Now, as long as that bullet cuts that line it is counted as a 10, correct? So with that said, you can shoot a shot that varies more than .5 of an inch from any other shot and still do well. If you’re shooting a group match and everyone is shooting .2 size groups, and you are shooting .4 size groups it would be safe to say that person doesn’t stand a chance. Now in score if the person hits that mothball they will get ten points, eventhough if you was to cut the targets out and lay them all onto of each and measure the overall group size, It could be in the .4s and that person still has a chance on placing. I would say it is possible that a person could shoot a perfect 250 score , and if you was to cut the targets out and lay them on top of each other, and measure the groups it could be close to .5. What I am tiring to say is, all the person has to do is place the shot in the mothball, it can vary from top to bottom and left to right from the 2nd,3rd,4th,or 5th shot. To add, let’s say that the person just misses the target they get a score of 9, they are not out of the ranks of placing. Let me throw in a further measurment, the outside of the x dot to the outside of the rin measures .294, if your shooting a 243 you can place the shot a bullet hole left right high or low in any direction and do well and even hit the x, but if you shot a group with the same aim point and the bullets impacted one bullet hole from that aim point in every direction you would have a nasty group.

Now we know that in super competitive shooting score match come down to x counts, because everyone has a perfect score, but in club matches this is not so. Now in group matches they go by an overall agg, and the people that shoot the most consistent small groups are going to win. To put it in a nut shell I would say that a newer shooter has a better chance to win or place in a score match where mistakes are not penalize as heavy than they do in a group match.

Or club shoots both group and score matches, they go back and forth. Most long time shooters don’t like score matches and attendance will drop when score matches come up, this also add to the benefit of the new shooter.
 
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This come from a man half way of the globe...just according to my own view:
- I can't agree anymore with Wayne that BR is not for everyone. While there are millions gun's owner out there, not many people like competition / to compete.
- Perhaps(?) new shooters just don't want to compete against the bests or experienced shooters (=need to encourage new shooters, always)
- Perhaps(?) still many people don't know the classes, rules/restrictions etc (=need more wider & intensive "publication" instead of just internet forum. Make connection with TV crews/reporter?)
- Because it's relatively expensive sport & difficult to master.
- Perhaps(?) too many governing/sanctioning bodies, and rules
- Too far from home also matters
- Perhaps the prizes have been un-attractive/just small? (need bigger prize?)
Maybe it's just not attactive & challenging for some people to go hundred or even thousand miles and then "only" win some bucks and woods?. How if we look at it this way...the SuperShoot...the biggest prize perhaps only a $800+ front rest, so far?. This is just an example. I'm not saying that the wood alone is not worthy, everyone will be very happy to win the wood. Supershoot/Kelbly range is already perfect to me (don't know the others), however it would be more interesting to see bigger prize in shooting matches. Bigger prize should/usually attract more people.
The question is, why we can't??? (while other kind of sports can?)
For comparison, in IPSC matches...$15K+ decent car prize is not uncommon.
When I won a BR match in Brisbane some years ago, my fam & friends asked me; you only got that "glass"? :D Well, I would win a limo in the future! Moral of that comments is, "why the prize is small?". That came from people that don't shoot, anyway.
We need / have to dig everything possible/doable, to make the match more attractive. I believe in many ways to Rome.
- I don't care with the range facility (etc) much, just as long as I can shoot comfortably and have fun. Anyway good benches & roof is a must for bench shooting, also proffesional crews.
- New shooters must be very welcomed and "served" well, before-during-after the match. Experienced shooters need to be friendly & helpful. (this to encourage & attract new shooters). Most of us don't like unfriendly & selfish person.
- I don't care if it is group or score, short or long range, bench or prone - as long as I can shoot with my rifle, and have fun.

Just my 2 cents,
seb.
 
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I have noticed a big trend to-wards the groundhog type matches myself. I think they look like good fun, although i have never attend one. I plant to however! I think the reason the GH matches are so popular is because there is a class for all shooters. Factory rifle, semi custom, and full blown custom. I think this is what draws the crowds. Folks with a factory rem 700 can come out for a day of shooting and they dont have to worry about being embarrassed by how bad they got beat buy the guy next to them with a 3000$ custom rifle. As for the original question, I wouldn't know. I like shooting both score and group. I like being around other shooters and there rifles, so it doesn't matter to me what i shoot, just as long as i am shooting!! Lee
 
82boy said:
If you throw one shot out badly you’re out of the placing. Now in score, if you throw one round badly out you still have a chance on finishing high. To put it this way, a new shooter that is leaning how to dope the wind, and getting accustomed to setting up, and range commands just has a better chance at placing in a score match.
Click to expand...

I am sorry but I really could not disagree with this analysis more. If a person shoots a slightly bad group at the beginning of a group match 4 screamers will go a long way towards pulling him back up in the final aggregate particularly a multi gun agg. In a Score match a 9 stays with you until the very end and at 100yds in a score match all a 249-24x gets you is condolances.

Dick
 
Score is fun, and for beginners is probably easier. Put a 30BR together and you're good to go. At 100 yards in fairly average conditions, the gun does the work. People like to do well and not end up at the bottom of the list, and this gives them that. Once you stretch out to 200 and 300 yards, the playing field is leveled and it aint as easy anymore.

Sorry to edit, clicked wrong and off it went without my comment attached..
Not sure this is a correct way to judge a 100 score match. I agree with Dick G. in that we have to accept what we have at the end of the match. Be it an X or a point, its gone and thats it. I feel there are enough good rifles in score, if this were true, we would see alot more 250-25x . Having to adjust for the next record shot, and its a long way to the sighter with a knob turning rest from bull 3, having to reaim fire and move on to the next record bull is a challenge in its own. I shoot with several group'ers and most have their own reasons for liking each. I have to like it unless travel out of state for every match. I know of no club shooting registered centerfire group in Maine. Both styles have their own challenges. I can say the longer distances are my favorite. Not sure if I just pay more attention or if my rifle performs better at long range. I highly doubt its due to a level playing field. It takes alot to win a score match with the shooters we have. Its not a trigger pulling contest by any means for any of us. I know that sounds defensive, I'm not being defensive at all. Mearly stating the facts as a relatively new shooter. Someone thinking they will stand a chance in score that group wouldnt provide is misleading. What are " fairly average conditions" ? are those when only 2 flags are pointing at each other out of 4 ? .. lol .. After shooting with the Eubers this past summer on several occasions, I would say group shooting helps when its go time. Those guys can lay down some fire when they see what they like.. We have several very good 6ppc shooters that consistently place. Not saying the larger 30 cal doesnt help the x count, but a .308 vs. a 6mm, a 9 is a 9 no matter what size the hole is. Not many group shooters use a 338 for a reason, more recoil, more time aiming and adjusting, less shooting in the right condition. Both are specialty sports with specialty equipment.
 
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goodgrouper said:
At my local range, it's NBRSA sanctioned group shooting at both 100 and 200 yards with all four guns. No hunter, no score, no desire to (apparently).


We have a covered loading area, room to camp, many motels and restaurants nearby, and a scenic range.
We have trophies all around and match winner cards with Presidential dollar coins. Lunch is served both days for $5 and all the drinks you want.
I'd like to see some score shoots here but I'm in the minority on that. Nobody seems interested in Hunter whatsoever.
Click to expand...
Where in Utah are you located and when do you have matches?
 
jGEE said:
Joe my opinion does not count, i don't shoot any matches but.......... I enjoy groups of 5 @ 50 yards. It does seem score shooters outnumber group shooters. Score shooters to me have an arrogant attitude toward group shooters. I don't never see any group shots posted by score shooters +why+?? I suspect score shooters will not group - seems strange to me but that is something i have deduced from being new and reading the boards.

just my honest view and not trying to "dis" anyone. joe
Click to expand...

In my opinion Joe, it's the other way around. There are way more group shooters who have an arrogant attitude toward Score Shooters and deeply believe that Score Shooting is not an accuracy game. There seems to be a lot more well to do folks involved in Group Shooting vs Score shooting also. The world revolves around the 6 PPC; you didn't know that? At least that has been my observation over the years. We do have some GREAT Group Shooters who shoot Score as well as Group. The attitude could have something to do with the participation numbers.
 
Thank You . . .

I read all the posts in this thread and then, read them all again. My personal goal is to attract more shooters in our club to the Centerfire Benchrest game: Be it Group or Score.

We have a good rimfire BR program here, with matches that attract 20 to 35 shooters.

What I am reading in this thread, is that most of you seem to agree with Dick Wright. New shooters prefer score matches. But, that there seems to be more to it than just score vs group.

In my opinion the score match problem with dropping a point and being out of the race, did not occur until "Varmint for Score" became popular. That "Hunter Target" was originally designed by old John Sweeny, the guy who came up with the the optical rule. John's original game was for 9 lb Hunting rifles with 6 power scopes. He even worked put a performance class system like is used by the NRA.

It was not long before "someone" changed the rules and allowed high dollar custom guns. Then "Varmint for Score" came in. Well, guess what? That target is too easy for the custom built 6ppc rifles. A good solution might be to use the 25 bull USBR target. The 1/10th inch 10 ring on that target could be a worthy challenge for the PPC. No one with a 6ppc could come close to a 250-25x on that target.

The other side of that coin is that lots of shooters are attracted to the easy IBS target, because shooting a perfect score could be possible with Lady Luck smiling on you.

I had been thinking of doing one score match and one group match next year at our club. Maybe attracting some shooters from Lower Michigan to come UP.

Now I am thinking: Score Targets for both matches. Using the IBS target for Hunter/Sporter rifles and the USBR target for the Custom rifles.

Next on my list: To ask Dick Wright what his schedule down in Harrison is for 2011.

You out there Dick?
 
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Joe Haller said:
ght.



The other side of that coin is that lots of shooters are attracted to the easy IBS target, because shooting a perfect score could be possible with Lady Luck smiling on you.




Well, perfection ain't showed up yet. The record 250-25x, 21 WO was set 4 or 5 years ago by Al Weaver and although 250-25x' s have become more common since, it's another order of magnitude to achieve the holy grail of 25 WO. What is perfect is the current IBS score target , and it ain't gonna be lady luck that forces the revamping of that current target.
Click to expand...
 
At Tomball Tx, we do it all. At our Club Matches, (which I run), we shoot a 100 yard Score aggregate, plus a warm up. We averaged 38 shooters for the five Club Matches in 2010.
The Score Format works great for our Club Matches as we do not have to worry about moving backers. The competition is just as intense as any Registered Match.

We also have a 2 day Registered NBRSA Varmint for Score Match, as well as a 2 day HBR Match, held on the same week end.

We also host the NBRSA Gulf Coast Region 10-shot Unlimited and Heavy Varmint Championship, as well as the Crawfish Invitational, which is LV-HV.

As to the previous post that stated that shooters would come to a non sanctioned Groupo Match, but the attendance fell off quite a bit if the Matches were Registered. I wonder if the pesky moving backer has anything to do with that??:rolleyes:

Also, I have a feeling that a lot of die hard Group Shooters, (I am one), do not like score because of the way they have learned to shoot Benchrest. That old thing of "you get 7 minutes to decide which 20 seconds you will use to shoot your group" simply does not work in score. You have to move the Rifle to each target, and the idea that you actually have to hit that little dot does make you stop and read the flags, rather than just waiting for the tails to drop and racking 5 shots down range as fast as you can cycle the Rifle. Try that in score, and you will get introduced to "Mr Nine" real quick..........jackie
 
Jackie,
It sounds like a well rounded club you have.
Being ignorant to group shooting, is there more cost in operation, moving backers and time in scoring that makes clubs see it as less productive to hold group matches? I think the two styles of shooting would make for a better shooter. It sure would bring out any flaws in technique or equipment. Yes, a speeding ticket will be issued to those who hurry in score. The fine can be severe.
Andy B.
 
Andy, yes. it is more costly, and more difficult, to put on a group match if it is indeed Registered with the moving backers required.

To hold a score match, all you need is something to hang targets on. It is that simple. In group, the moving backer system is something that has to work all the time, and has to be maintained. Once you get set-up, it is not that difficult, as long as you have people who are willing. That is the big thing. If it is in tathers, and is not working properly, you can't have a match.

The scoring is a non issue, although with gthe way Benchrest has evolved, you HAVE to have a computer with the proper program to keep track of the aggregates. Score is much simpler. Heck, at our Club Matches, I actually let the shooters, (teamed up with a partner), score and record their own targets. Any that are in question and need the use of the reticle are checked by me. Simple.

In our Registered Score Matches, we do use a computer, but could live without it if the power went out........jackie
 
Joe, 2011 Harrison Centerfire Benchrest Schedule...

Group;
May 14
June 18
July 23
August 20

Score;
June 4
July 9
August 6
September 10

We don't have any Rimfire matches scheduled for 2011.

I'll be sending out the schedule shortly to those who shoot at Harrison. If you PM me your address I'll add it to my database and get one in the mail to you.

Al Walewski
 
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