Head Space?

[Charles E]

Indeed. This book, authored by the preeminent Benchrest shooter of all time, received I'm sure, a good once over by a host of people. However, "What this guy said ... " can pretty much be taken to the bank as something very reliable: http://www.brunoshooters.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BSS&Product_Code=TBSC Read it and reread it. There are a host of gems everywhere, including his thoughts on sizing brass. Digest everything in this book and you'll never frequent this site again.

Reasonable start. At least Bart Sauter and Larry Costa were involved with the publication of the book.

Now, I don't have the book. But I doubt you'll find in there, without further context information,

NEVER NEVER NEVER just neck size EVER!

and

FULL LENGTH SIZING, which should be done each and every time you reload, with a properly dimensioned Die, moves the case's ENTIRE dimensions from .0005" to no more than .001" to bring it back into specs. And, as an added benefit, you only need one die to do that.

I do have one from-the-factory rifle, a Savage 112 Tactical in .223, manufactured in the 1990s, that I use when I have to fire a Factory Class match. For dies, I have (1) a Redding die set, both FL and neck, and (2) a Bonanza that can both size the neck and bump the shoulder, but does not size the rest of the body. I have about 50 cases for this rifle, and about 1,200 rounds through the barrel. What's that work out to, around 24 reloads on each case?

The cases have never been FL sized. Why? I keep pressures down to a little less than what's listed as "max" in the loading manuals. By the way, the chamber runs .010 longer than SAAMI, I did measure that. While I didn't measure the chamber at the head, I'd guess the base diameter in the chamber is well over .005 above SAAMI minimum for cases. And I'd guess the dies are under SAAMI maximum for dies -- otherwise they'd be defective. So, were I to FL size every time, I'd be moving the brass far more than the .0005 to .001 you mention. About 10 times as much.

If you are summarizing Mr. Boyer when you make your statements, I find it hard to believe he didn't, somewhere farther up in the book, note that he is talking about Benchrest chamberings. That he specifies his resize reamer as well as chamber reamer. I have no idea if he prefers his chamber reamer to be .0025, .003, .0035, or .004 over the resize reamer at the base, but likely it is somewhere in there.

But that's not the situation here. The original poster stated:

the rifle has only fired 550 rounds since new I am the first owner its a howa 1500 in 308

We're talking about a Howa in .308 -- with RCBS dies, another thing the original poster mentioned.

We're in the General Forum.

In short, I think the content in your post has a lot in common with the Christmas Goose.

 

[mks]

NEVER NEVER NEVER just neck size EVER!

Accuracy is all about consistency, consistency, and consistency.

So, if someone suggests neck sizing only, don't just walk away from them, run from them as fast as you can!

I think you might be overstating the benefits of FL sizing, just a little.

The purpose of the case is to contain the powder, align the bullet to the throat and support the primer during firing pin fall, while adding minimal dynamics to the system before the bullet exits the barrel. The case will never fit the chamber better than after it is fire formed. Any mechanical working of the brass that you do to it afterwards can only make the fit worse, and add inconsistencies due to extra motion of the looser brass in the chamber.

Alignment of the bullet is better with a tight-fitting case. Further, sizing only a fraction of the neck allows the unsized part of the neck to align the bullet right where it matters.

Support of the primer is also more consistent with a case that isn't rattling around in the chamber, if only a thousandth or two.

Whenever a part of a system is loose, system dynamic response gets noisy. By always firing loose cases, you are making the dynamics consistently noisy. That is a kind of consistency that doesn't help accuracy.

I do FL size when necessary to reduce bolt closing force. I have to accept that the accuracy of the FL sized case won't be quite as good.

 

[Boyd Allen]

I think that we have gone a little far afield from the original question, and gotten into things that are well beyond what should be taught to someone who is at the beginning, working with a factory .308 and a one piece FL die. If he gets his die set right, the problem that he originally came to this forum with will be solved. This is not to say that there are not lots of other issues that relate, that could be discussed, but at this point, it seems to me that keeping things simple has some virtue. Do this and this will be the result. Once he has accomplished the initial task, if he reports other problems, we can deal with them, one at a time.

Sometimes, when I would teach some new math concept, to a class of seventh or eighth graders, I would explain it in the simplest, and most direct manner that I could manage, and after making sure that the class seemed to understand what I had said, I would ask them if they wanted me to continue on, and make my explanation more complicated. I knew what the answer would be, but I asked it to make a point, to emphasize that this is the basic idea, and that if you remember this, you will have the basic concept. The class understood that while they grasped the basic idea, that if I went on and on with endless details and variations, that they would likely become confused and forget the important core concept along the way. Certainly, after they had had some practice with simple examples, variations would be introduced, but not until they had the basic operation well in hand. I think that it the same when teaching someone anything for the first time. Keep it as simple as possible, sticking to the basics, stop when that is understood, and practice that before continuing.

 

[Charles E]

Boyd,

Yes and no. Your post #33 should have been all he needed. Great post, by the way, so I'll repeat it here, with just a touch of red for newer reloaders.

Rick,
To accurately adjust your FL die, I suggest that you purchase one of these. http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-...h-Body-1-Each/
Use a punch to deprime a case that was fired in your rifle with at least a moderately stout ( but safe) load, measure the case, and then set your die to bump the shoulder back no more than .002. If the case is once fired from new, you can probably set the die so that it is the same length, shoulder to head, as fired. Check all cases after sizing, since mixed cases may each respond differently to a die setting. For that reason it is best to keep them in sets by make and number of firings. You may want to keep in mind that one complete turn of the die moves it .071", so as you approach your final setting, very small moves are the rule.
Boyd

But it wasn't enough, it was Rick himself that wanted more.

Just as a curiosity, I thought about you post & came up with an idiot procedure for setting dies for a chamber. Additional purchases are (1) a cheap FL die, and a Lee collet die - or any neck die. Here it is.

1. Take the new FL die and have it cut off about 1 inch up from the base. Now it will resize the base of a case, whilst touching nothing else. (A die is hard, it may take carbide tooling, but there are no dimensional issues here. I've done this, can't remember if we used carbide or if it wasn't necessary.)

2. Neck size the new case, seat a bullet, then fire.

3. Drive out the primer as you suggest, and measure the headspace.

4. Run the case through your makeshift base die.

5. If it still chambers easily, neck size it, seat a bullet, and fire again.

Repeat 1-5 until it won't chamber easily. Since the base has just been resized, it must need shoulder set-back (i.e., headspacing). As soon as the case won't camber easily, measure it with the recently purchased Stoney Point. Set your as yet unused FL die so the headspace is moved back between .001 and .002, whatever it takes to "stick" at .001 or a bit more.

With the press ram fully up, with a case in the die, screw down the lock ring, and lock it. Take the die out, re-seat it in the press, and run another case through, to check that you've set the lock ring correctly. Repeat this sequence until you can take the FL die out, reposition it, and get the desired reading.

Your FL die is now properly set for your chamber, assuming the same press and shell holder. That portion of the chamber is not subject to wear, you are set for the life of that barrel.

Whether to use it (FL), or the neck die, or a neck & bump die is your business.

 

[Boyd Allen]

Charles,
Digressing slightly from the topic of this thread, a friend, who works on a budget, chambered a rifle in .243 AI and made a bump die using his chambering reamer. After a number of firings, predictably, his cases became tight at their bases. Since he had done me some favors, I picked up a used, non carbide, .45 ACP die set, for $10 and suggested that he use the sizing die (the bare die body with all of the other parts removed), either as it came, or polished out to a better fit, to size the bases of his cases. It has worked just fine ever since.

 

[ricky5042]

NEVER NEVER NEVER just neck size EVER! Here's what happens.

When you just neck size, the body of the case continues to expand at each firing [the interior volume increases also] until, at some point, you will not be able to seat the case in the chamber.

Then, you have to bring the body back into specs to be able to seat the round. Most who neck size, also use a body die. They have to at some point, or they throw the brass away. In order to bring the body back into specs you OVER WORK the brass by having to move it a longer distance to meet specs. It becomes a perpetual, alternating process, between neck sizing, and body sizing. There is nothing consistent about it.

Accuracy is all about consistency, consistency, and consistency. There is nothing consistent about working one part of the case many times and another part a few times. Over Working brass has nothing to do with frequency and has everything to do with how far brass has to be moved to bring it back into the original designer's dimensions.

FULL LENGTH SIZING, which should be done each and every time you reload, with a properly dimensioned Die, moves the case's ENTIRE dimensions from .0005" to no more than .001" to bring it back into specs. And, as an added benefit, you only need one die to do that.

When brass is moved miniscule distances there is NO Over Working and consistency, consistency, and consistency is maintained, which promotes accuracy.

So, if someone suggests neck sizing only, don't just walk away from them, run from them as fast as you can!

Purchase a properly dimensioned, Full Length Die [preferably with bushing capability] and use it each and every time you resize. It will serve you well and prevent a whole host of problems.

Firstly I wear glasses so im covered there
Hi when I was loading my 223 I was using lee dies and was full length sizing every single time and my best group at my clubs 50m range was 0.060"
and when I got the brass off my friend he only neck sized and I full length sized them twice then started noticing head separation! so im guessing the 12 or 13 times he neck sized them made the base really thin and with me full length sizing has put them under to much pressure and that's why they are rupturing!

Rick

 

[ricky5042]

Thanks for all the replies guys when I next get some powder il load 5 and see how they go then il do as you all have suggested and let you know how I get on.

Rick

 

[Charles E]

...so im guessing the 12 or 13 times he neck sized them made the base really thin...

Rick

You really do not get it, do you? Neck sizing did not make the brass thin. In effect, you made the brass thin by when you started pushing back the shoulder, then firing the now-shorter case (after your too-aggressive FL sizing). Firing a too-short to-the shoulder case MADE the case stretch under 55,000 psi. And in stretching, it didn't stretch evenly, never does. It usually stretches most just above the web. Well, in this scenario, "stretching" = "thin spot". Next, you then oversize with a FL die again, and it stretches again on firing, like before. It doesn't take too many cycles of this before you get head separations. And you did.

 

[ricky5042]

So in effect him neck sizing the brass for his rem 700 has made the brass to long fat or what ever which made me full length size the brass just to get it to cycle in my rifle, so his neck sizing inadvertently was the cause of the failures! all be it with my help
I am going to fire a few rounds when I get some more powder then measure them and back the die off size 1 then try it in the rifle until I get to the point there is a bit of resistance when closing the bolt and from what iv read that should be a better fit to stop the separation issue after a few reloads

Rick

 

[Boyd Allen]

Ricky....buddy,
You really do not have this at all. Get the tool that I suggested, learn to set your FL die. Your failures came from setting you FL die wrong. Period, the end. Until you do this, we are wasting our time.

 

[ricky5042]

Yes I know this and as said if my friend has one he will check my head space if not il buy one so I get it right

 

[jo191145]

If I may make another point.

Buy new brass.
Using brass fired in another gun multiple times is not a good idea.
Brass hardens with firings whether necksized or fl sized. Now take that brass and put it in a different chamber and it will not as easily,reliably expand to the new chamber dimensions.
Brass also goes through an initial stretch on its first virgin firing. Depending on the differences in headspace between virgin brass and the chamber it can weaken the brass quite a bit.

You took brass that had been stretched/weakened and hardened through neck sizing and multiple firings to the point it would no longer fit the original rifle. Then you squished it to the point it would fit yours(or more)
Sorry you just can't do that.

You need to grab a good gunsmith and have him run you through this stuff until you understand it fully.
Your playing with more than fire.

 

[ricky5042]

The brass iv had all the problems with has now been scrapped! I have 110 once fired Lapua brass which a friend was given from an FT/R shoot at bisley, other than some RWS brass I have that's all I have to work with for now.
Until I get some more TR140 I cant reload any more rounds so im going up a local shop run by a former military marksman who is going to run me through loading up some rounds with the same brass iv had issues with and a friend is going to fire them in his 308 rifle and inspect the brass to see if there is any evidence of rupturing as iv been getting in my rifle.

Rick

 

[jo191145]

It's good you scrapped the 12+ fired brass. That's a good move.

Firing your brass out of a friends rifle really won't tell you much and now your subjecting it to forming to another chamber. The only chamber that matters is yours. If you feel it's beneficial to do so just shoot a few and toss em in the trash afterwards. Perhaps I'm overly superstitious but I never want to subject any of my brass to different environments that the whole lot doesn't go through.

Hopefully your military marksmen guy will have the proper tools to do measurements. If you have any fired brass from your gun bring it along so he can compare.

Bottom line, setting up your fl die on the marks men's press will be educational but you will need the tools to do it again on yours. It won't be the same between the two.

 

[ricky5042]

It's good you scrapped the 12+ fired brass. That's a good move.

Firing your brass out of a friends rifle really won't tell you much and now your subjecting it to forming to another chamber. The only chamber that matters is yours. If you feel it's beneficial to do so just shoot a few and toss em in the trash afterwards. Perhaps I'm overly superstitious but I never want to subject any of my brass to different environments that the whole lot doesn't go through.

Hopefully your military marksmen guy will have the proper tools to do measurements. If you have any fired brass from your gun bring it along so he can compare.

Bottom line, setting up your fl die on the marks men's press will be educational but you will need the tools to do it again on yours. It won't be the same between the two.

Hi I have nearly 200 cases from the friend who gave them to me so I have put them all in to a bag with scrap on so when my club weighs the brass in for a local charity I will give them to them to weigh in as well as there's.
I am getting a friend to load and fire some through his gun to see if the brass shows signs of splitting from his rifle and if they do then it is definitely the brass at fault, iv only done this as I already primed them so im doing it this way so the case is dead.

Rick

 

[Dick Grosbier]

I am getting a friend to load and fire some through his gun to see if the brass shows signs of splitting from his rifle and if they do then it is definitely the brass at fault, iv only done this as I already primed them so im doing it this way so the case is dead.

Rick

If you insist on firing these cases again which is probably a bad idea . Check very carefully for a shiny line around the base of the case where they were separating on you. If you see a tiny little bright line they are ready to separate already.
Dick

 

[MarkR]

A good reloading manual or two might help you understand the intricasies and dangers of just "winging it" while reloading. Eyes can be put out, faces ruined or even death can occur if you do not fully understand what you're doing. As well, find a knowledgeable person to team up with for a while at your club so that they can mentor you. And please quit shooting your brass in someone elses rifle, that does you no good whatsoever. Thats the best advice that I can give you.

 

[r44astro]

Long post

The brass iv had all the problems with has now been scrapped! I have 110 once fired Lapua brass which a friend was given from an FT/R shoot at bisley, other than some RWS brass I have that's all I have to work with for now.
Until I get some more TR140 I cant reload any more rounds so im going up a local shop run by a former military marksman who is going to run me through loading up some rounds with the same brass iv had issues with and a friend is going to fire them in his 308 rifle and inspect the brass to see if there is any evidence of rupturing as iv been getting in my rifle.

Rick

Long post and I haven't read it all so someone may have already covered this. The only case separation problem I've had was with a used 6ppc I bought. I found that the bolt clearance was over .050. Set barrel back re-chambered and all is OK.

 

[ricky5042]

I wont be using the problem brass in my rifle and the brass is in the scrap bin bar a few a friend is going to try in his rifle and that was his choice he offered as he cant understand why they are doing it in my rifle and he said its the brass not my head space! but if it still happens when iv loaded a few of the once fired Lapua brass I have then it will be going to a gun smith to have the head space sorted out, its a new rifle with only 550 rounds through it other wise I may have considered to have it re barrelled and have done with it!

Rick

 

[243winxb]

Hornady Tool - How to use.

Gauging Success - Minimum Headspace http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=12897/GunTechdetail/Gauging_Success___Minimum_Headspace_and_Maximum_COL

Hot loading to reach 1000 yds may expand the web area of the brass. Standard dies may not resize this correctly.