Head Space?

[TheoW]

Head Space............

Ricky,
Matt gave you some explanations describing how to full length resize in the simplest terms he could. Please reread them over again until you understand them. If you continue in the manner you're heading you will do irreparable harm.

Good luck, Ted.

 

[ricky5042]

I managed to find a pic of the neck sizing die and its different to the dies I have 2 full length dies il be using them tomoz to size my Lapua and rws brass iv been given.

Rick

 

[Boyd Allen]

The fellow that told you that you could just neck size to save brass is shooting light loads. If you do, you may get away with it for some time, but if you load to get the full potential that your various calibers, you will not be able to just neck size, and if you do not get the right tools to work with, chances are you will not set your FL dies correctly. Do you have a metal dial or digital caliper that measures to .001"?

 

[Charles E]

Ricky,

I wish the Sinclair book on reloading was still available, but it doesn't seem to be. There are too many people getting in the act, who, as is almost necessary on an internet forum, must assume certain things about the reader. I'm just one more, and what I say may not help. But consider Varmint Al's page

http://www.varmintal.com/arelo.htm#Neck

I happen to agree with him. Now consider Boyd's remarks in his last post (#23 in this thread) -- I happen to agree with him, too.

How can that be? Because benchrest shooters, for what they consider good reason, load to higher pressures. Loading manuals will keep you in the region where you don't have to full-length resize, or at least, not very often. It isn't uncommon for benchrest shooters to load to 65,000 to 70,000 psi (piezo, NOT copper units of pressure). Under 60,000 psi, little need to FL resize. Over that, could well be. And as you head over 65,000 psi, almost always.

That said, you need to set your dies up for the proper head clearance (the proper term for "headspace"). A good book helps to understand, but in the end, you also need tools -- a gauge and a caliper. The right brand of $30 calipers are good enough. Sinclair use to sell some & probably still does. The gauge is best made with the chambering reamer. Absent that, I suppose some sort of gauge universal for your chambering will have to do -- Stony Point, Hornady, Wilson, whatever brand.

Using the gauge isn't as easy as it might seem. Best is to de-prime all the cases without running them through a die. Measure all of them, particularly any that fit tightly, though be aware that this tightness may come from an area other than the body length (what you're trying to measure). Anyway, take the longest (largest number), and set your FL die up so that after using it, you get a reading about .001 less than before sizing of that longest case. Take .0015 less if you have to. Brass is springy; if you move it back .0005, or less, it may not stay there (read more of Varmint Al).

If you're only using one reloading press, set the lock ring, with the case fully up in the die. But just in case, when you take the die out & put it back next time, do another check. And if anyone knows a good, basic book the equal of

http://www.amazon.com/Sinclair-Inte...loading-Shooting/dp/B001EJDAH6/ref=pd_sxp_f_i

please post the reference..

 

[mks]

Ricky,

Using a headspace gauge is not going to help you. You need to use the rifle's chamber to set the FL die correctly. Listen to what the other posters have offered. Remove the firing pin from your bolt. Use the bolt to determine where the FL die needs to be set. Adjust the die so that the bolt will close with a VERY SLIGHT bit of resistance at the bottom. Then lock the die down - that is where you want to be. Presto! All done.

Matt

Matt,
With all due respect, setting the FL die by feel may be working for you, but if the die doesn't fit the chamber, it is a good way to get into some serious trouble. You really should be measuring shoulder set back and making sure it is no more than 0.002". If you still have resistance on closing the bolt, there is a problem in a different part of the case that needs to be corrected. DO NOT keep pushing the shoulder back until it fits.

Let's all be safe,
Keith

 

[Boyd Allen]

+1

 

[ricky5042]

The fellow that told you that you could just neck size to save brass is shooting light loads. If you do, you may get away with it for some time, but if you load to get the full potential that your various calibers, you will not be able to just neck size, and if you do not get the right tools to work with, chances are you will not set your FL dies correctly. Do you have a metal dial or digital caliper that measures to .001"?

Hi iv decided to full length size, yes I have a digital calliper.

Rick

 

[ricky5042]

Ricky,

I wish the Sinclair book on reloading was still available, but it doesn't seem to be. There are too many people getting in the act, who, as is almost necessary on an internet forum, must assume certain things about the reader. I'm just one more, and what I say may not help. But consider Varmint Al's page

http://www.varmintal.com/arelo.htm#Neck

I happen to agree with him. Now consider Boyd's remarks in his last post (#23 in this thread) -- I happen to agree with him, too.

How can that be? Because benchrest shooters, for what they consider good reason, load to higher pressures. Loading manuals will keep you in the region where you don't have to full-length resize, or at least, not very often. It isn't uncommon for benchrest shooters to load to 65,000 to 70,000 psi (piezo, NOT copper units of pressure). Under 60,000 psi, little need to FL resize. Over that, could well be. And as you head over 65,000 psi, almost always.

That said, you need to set your dies up for the proper head clearance (the proper term for "headspace"). A good book helps to understand, but in the end, you also need tools -- a gauge and a caliper. The right brand of $30 calipers are good enough. Sinclair use to sell some & probably still does. The gauge is best made with the chambering reamer. Absent that, I suppose some sort of gauge universal for your chambering will have to do -- Stony Point, Hornady, Wilson, whatever brand.

Using the gauge isn't as easy as it might seem. Best is to de-prime all the cases without running them through a die. Measure all of them, particularly any that fit tightly, though be aware that this tightness may come from an area other than the body length (what you're trying to measure). Anyway, take the longest (largest number), and set your FL die up so that after using it, you get a reading about .001 less than before sizing of that longest case. Take .0015 less if you have to. Brass is springy; if you move it back .0005, or less, it may not stay there (read more of Varmint Al).

If you're only using one reloading press, set the lock ring, with the case fully up in the die. But just in case, when you take the die out & put it back next time, do another check. And if anyone knows a good, basic book the equal of

http://www.amazon.com/Sinclair-Inte...loading-Shooting/dp/B001EJDAH6/ref=pd_sxp_f_i

please post the reference..

Hi I am loading to the higher end of the scale because im trying to get a load to get me out to 1000 yards.
one of the guys down my club is a smith and when I see him il ask him to bring his go no go gauge in so I can check my head space.
Thanks

Rick

 

[ricky5042]

Keith is so right.
Giving advice on what to do without taking measurements on several cases and the chamber is foolhardy. First off, you mention more than one brand of case being used and that's a no-no, as far as I'm concerned. While the firings on the cases doesn't sound excessive under normal conditions, it may be in this condition which gives rise to the problems you are having.
Your die may not fit your chamber properly and that may be giving you problems.
You haven't mentioned measuring the case at the area of the web. That may be giving you a problem and all the shoulder bumping in the world won't help that.
May I assume Dorset is still in Great Britain? Do you have a gunsmith that you can go to where good measurements can be taken? Not everything can be solved on the internet.

Hi yes it is in the uk, one of the guys at my club is a gun smith so im going to ask him when I see him to check my rifle out for me.
The cases that have split were from a friend with a rem 700 and after him shooting them they wouldn't cycle in my rifle so I wound the die down until they cycled in my rifle and from what you say that was not the correct thing to do! im new to reloading and have learnt a valuable lesson.
The new dies iv got have sized the brass from no adjustments from me and they cycle so im going to load 5 and see if they show any signs of rupturing.
Thanks

Rick

 

[Charles E]

one of the guys down my club is a smith and when I see him il ask him to bring his go no go gauge in so I can check my head space.

I think there is still a misconception. The head space (head clearance) of your rifle's chamber is probably fine. And if not, so what? It is a complete system, all pieces have to fit, and there is a cycle of firing, reloading, firing, reloading, etc.

Consider what we in the States call "Wildcat" cartridges -- there is no CIP or SAAMI standard, no "go gauges" & "no-go gauges" (actually, that's a slight mis-truth, but only trivially so) -- and yet it all works. Why is that?

One way to go is to have a good gunsmith chamber up a barrel for you and make a set of dies to fit that chamber. When you wear out that barrel, go back to him (or her) and get another, reminding them of the first. You still have to set the die up properly, but at least you've cut down on all variables but one or two.

Many of the best shooters in the States go that route. The somewhat famous Vietnam era sniper Carlos Hathcock use to say something like "I don't work on sticks, I just shoot them."

But it is a little expensive to go this route, or you may actually enjoy reloading. And at this point, you have to understand how it all works, and you are plain not going to get all this information from an internet post. Too many people assume you already know something, or waste your time assuming you don't know something & go on & on about it so you miss whatever they do have to contribute. Or they forget to mention a step because t is so obvious to them, etc.

Now as you start getting to the upper linits of the pressure curve, things begin to get more dangerous. There is always a certain danger, obviously. But as you approach the limit of elasticity in brass, that danger grows considerably. Yes, a good rifle will handle a case failure -- usually. We're usually talking about high-pressure gas now, not flying bits of steel. That takes even more pressure. The eyes are the most vulnerable, BTW.

What is involved is not difficult, it is jut a little complicated, there are more variables than one might suppose, as with most systems. Things need to work together; that is more important than blindly making measurements & checking them against a CIP standard.

Just as a teaser -- I shoot 1,000 yard benchrest, it is my primary form of competition. I also shoot some short-range benchrest. I run higher pressures in my short-range rifles, for a reason.

Get a couple good books & wear them out.

 

[John S]

Buy new Lapua brass and a Lee Collet die for neck sizing only.

The new brass should chamber perfectly and the Lee Collet die will not affect the length of the brass.

Or chase this dog around and around and around.

Best wishes.

 

[Boyd Allen]

Rick,
To accurately adjust your FL die, I suggest that you purchase one of these. http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-Headspace-Kit-With-Body-1-Each/
Use a punch to deprime a case that was fired in your rifle with at least a moderately stout ( but safe) load, measure the case, and then set your die to bump the shoulder back no more than .002. If the case is once fired from new, you can probably set the die so that it is the same length, shoulder to head, as fired. Check all cases after sizing, since mixed cases may each respond differently to a die setting. For that reason it is best to keep them in sets by make and number of firings. You may want to keep in mind that one complete turn of the die moves it .071", so as you approach your final setting, very small moves are the rule.
Boyd

 

[ricky5042]

Hi I enjoy re loading and I work to get the best load for my rifle when I had my howa 223 I didn't have these problems every thing went really well I found my most accurate load really quickly and I was full length sizing the 223 brass every time I reloaded it, the first lot of brass I started with were old military ammunition I fired from my gun, the gun was an old one which I got from a local shop but this rifle is a brand new one with only 550 rounds from new so I was expecting similar results from reloading the 308 cases, the first rounds I fired were ppu 175gn which showed no signs of pressure and I reloaded them twice and again no pressure signs, I have only had split cases since iv been using the Lapua brass I was given which were reloaded 12 and 13 times, so I sized and de-caped 40 rounds and went down the range and when I went to chamber a round it was really tight to close the bolt and some got stuck so I stopped using them as I was told the base of the case was too big and id need to run them through a small base die and then id be ok to use them, in the end I just used a kinetic hammer and pulled them all, then another member said it was the shoulder that was the issue and to adjust the die to push the shoulder back so I looked at my die and noticed the pin was a long way out of the bottom and it was bottoming out on the case which is why it was not sizing them correctly so like a numpty newbie I set it back up so the pin was only sticking out a 1/4" and then set the die so I over cammed it like I was advised by another friend so i did this and sure enough the cases cycled in my rifle so I left it and started re loading and doing my load testing it all went ok for a while and I was checking for pressure signs on the primers and didn't notice anything untoward until when on the 300 yard range with 3 different loads to test 46-47 & 48gns of elcho 17, a load id tested a couple of days before right up to 49.5gns as I was putting them over a crono to check velocity anyway I fired my first 3 46gns then 2 47gn and on my third the case wouldn't eject so I pushed it out with my rod and it had all but a hair completely separated! since then I have had 8 to 10 which show the ring round the base where the first one split. I have listened to all the comments and from how I read it I was the one who has caused this by not setting my die up correctly so I have taken the die out and have scrapped the brass and im going to try again with the new brass iv been given so here's hopping it was me and not my rifle that is the problem and just to make sure iv given 50 rounds which I had already primed to a friend to load up and use in his rifle and see if he gets the same problem iv been having with the brass.
sorry to waffle but I thought you needed a run down on how this has all come about.
Thanks

Rick

 

[ricky5042]

Rick,
To accurately adjust your FL die, I suggest that you purchase one of these. http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-Headspace-Kit-With-Body-1-Each/
Use a punch to deprime a case that was fired in your rifle with at least a moderately stout ( but safe) load, measure the case, and then set your die to bump the shoulder back no more than .002. If the case is once fired from new, you can probably set the die so that it is the same length, shoulder to head, as fired. Check all cases after sizing, since mixed cases may each respond differently to a die setting. For that reason it is best to keep them in sets by make and number of firings. You may want to keep in mind that one complete turn of the die moves it .071", so as you approach your final setting, very small moves are the rule.
Boyd

Thanks Boyd im hopping my friend has one I can use to save buying one just yet.
I have just started to sort the brass in to batches of 50 so il have 4 batches in total with a few spare cases so I can keep track of the brass, how many firings do you get from your cases? be it Lapua RWS Remington? I ask because iv been told I could get 5 or 6 then replace them and even I should get up to 20 loadings from the Lapua brass!
Thanks

Rick

 

[Boyd Allen]

The accuracy with which you set your FL die will be a major determiner of case life. When your cases fail, if it is near the head, it is highly likely that excessive shoulder set back during FL sizing is the culprit. If you set dies properly, even less expensive cases should have much longer lives then you are currently getting. Fundamentally, it is all about getting the die setting right. The other issue is how much cases expand in a rifle's chamber during firing, and how much the FL die works the neck. If you wan to get an idea of what is taking place in this area, measure the diameter of a fired case, at its mouth, then a FL sized case, and finally a FL case sized with the decapping/expanding assembly removed from the die. What you will observe is that the case neck is pulled down quite a bit smaller than it needs to be, before the expander is drawn through it. All of this work hardens necks, and will eventually result in their splitting. If you are stuck with that die, the solution is to carefully anneal, but I suggest that you do not pursue that for the moment, because if it is improperly done, the result can be dangerous.

 

[alinwa]

Ricky,

I may be misreading but I get the impression you're still not HEARING what these people are saying

This is not a brass brand issue

This is not a die brand issue

This is not a rifle brand issue

This is not a "headspace" issue

This is not an AGE issue

This is not a sorting issue

This is most likely not even a settings issue

This is a FIT issue and all the careful setting in the world CANNOT fix it if the die doesn't scrupulously fit, actually MATCH your chamber.


I see suggestions like annealing and it sets my teeth on edge because annealing is a very advanced procedure, one to apply when all other aspects are well understood...... FIT, the fit required for repeated trouble-free reloading of your cases is tricksy, fit is hard and in your case complicated by the fact that you seem to have serendipitously stumbled into good fit on your old Howa 223. The Howa is/was easy, automatic even.....This isn't a pat on Howa's back nor is it a difference in chamberings (223 VS 308) it's pure-dee LUCK.

You got lucky first time with fit.

Now you're struggling with fit.

YOU MUST FIND A FIT! If you hope to reload cases many times.

Meantime, be aware that rupturing cases is kinda' like blowing a tyre, generally uneventful, anti-climactic. BUT, that ONE time in a thousand thousand, hot day on the M5 and you get a boomer that sets you sidewise in traffic.....cases are like that. Mostly "ppfffffft" and a whiff, sometimes a curl of smoke. BUT!!!!..... that ONE time of cataclysmic gasket failure coupled with a warm load and you may well be scrabbling about in DarkWorld......... on your knees looking for your missing retinas.....

Let's avoid that, shall we?

Please take the time to find your fit.

And Wear Those Safety Glasses My Peeps!!!!




al

 

[Hunter]

Meantime, be aware that rupturing cases is kinda' like blowing a tyre, generally uneventful, anti-climactic. BUT, that ONE time in a thousand thousand, hot day on the M5 and you get a boomer that sets you sidewise in traffic.....cases are like that. Mostly "ppfffffft" and a whiff, sometimes a curl of smoke. BUT!!!!..... that ONE time of cataclysmic gasket failure coupled with a warm load and you may well be scrabbling about in DarkWorld......... on your knees looking for your missing retinas.....

Let's avoid that, shall we?

...

And Wear Those Safety Glasses My Peeps!!!!

alinwa, I usually enjoy reading your posts; the above is one of the best I've read on this board. It amazes me how many shooters I see without glasses; I used to be one such shooter -- until I experienced one of those cataclysmic gasket failure-type events.

 

[abintx]

iv been advised to neck size to save over working the brass and once fire formed they told me I would only need to neck size. Rick

NEVER NEVER NEVER just neck size EVER! Here's what happens.

When you just neck size, the body of the case continues to expand at each firing [the interior volume increases also] until, at some point, you will not be able to seat the case in the chamber.

Then, you have to bring the body back into specs to be able to seat the round. Most who neck size, also use a body die. They have to at some point, or they throw the brass away. In order to bring the body back into specs you OVER WORK the brass by having to move it a longer distance to meet specs. It becomes a perpetual, alternating process, between neck sizing, and body sizing. There is nothing consistent about it.

Accuracy is all about consistency, consistency, and consistency. There is nothing consistent about working one part of the case many times and another part a few times. Over Working brass has nothing to do with frequency and has everything to do with how far brass has to be moved to bring it back into the original designer's dimensions.

FULL LENGTH SIZING, which should be done each and every time you reload, with a properly dimensioned Die, moves the case's ENTIRE dimensions from .0005" to no more than .001" to bring it back into specs. And, as an added benefit, you only need one die to do that.

When brass is moved miniscule distances there is NO Over Working and consistency, consistency, and consistency is maintained, which promotes accuracy.

So, if someone suggests neck sizing only, don't just walk away from them, run from them as fast as you can!

Purchase a properly dimensioned, Full Length Die [preferably with bushing capability] and use it each and every time you resize. It will serve you well and prevent a whole host of problems.

 

[Charles E]

Rick, Be aware that not all of us on BR Central agree amongst ourselves, either. For example, I disagree with the last post by abintx (we're up to #40 now). Which might or might not make one of us wrong, it would depend on a host of factors. Just part of the problem/fun of the sport.

Edit:

while not the answer to a maiden's prayer, I did find this, which is a good start to the kind of thinking one must go through... Not a substitute for a book, though, where the author's words have been gone over by an editor, and hopefully a couple other readers, then re-worked by the author, all before publishing.

http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Proper_Reloading_Practices-c1246-wp7875.htm

BTW, SAAMI in the States is similar to CIP in Europe. The two don't always have the same numbers, they're standards, not "truth."

Further edit:

here's an article from the Border Barrels site. It's not directly relevant to your "head space" question, but it does get into factors that can and do affect pressure:

http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/Pressure_Trials_Consortium.htm

Both of these are a lot more reliable than "What some guy said..."

 

[abintx]

Edit:

while not the answer to a maiden's prayer, I did find this, which is a good start to the kind of thinking one must go through... Not a substitute for a book, though, where the author's words have been gone over by an editor, and hopefully a couple other readers, then re-worked by the author, all before publishing.

http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Proper_Reloading_Practices-c1246-wp7875.htm

BTW, SAAMI in the States is similar to CIP in Europe. The two don't always have the same numbers, they're standards, not "truth."

Further edit:

here's an article from the Border Barrels site. It's not directly relevant to your "head space" question, but it does get into factors that can and do affect pressure:

http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/Pressure_Trials_Consortium.htm

Both of these are a lot more reliable than "What some guy said..."

Indeed. This book, authored by the preeminent Benchrest shooter of all time, received I'm sure, a good once over by a host of people. However, "What this guy said ... " can pretty much be taken to the bank as something very reliable: http://www.brunoshooters.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BSS&Product_Code=TBSC Read it and reread it. There are a host of gems everywhere, including his thoughts on sizing brass. Digest everything in this book and you'll never frequent this site again.