gunsmith excersise.....

[mike in co]

again , an opinon, but not based on facts
from the gunsmith forum header...
Equipment, Technique and General Gunsmithing Discussion


not one word about accuracy nor br....

if you look at threads there are all kinds of GENERAL questions
discussions about wore out rem 700...721's
22 mausers.....
you talking about wood...oppsssssssssssssss
you talking about blowing a brake off your rilfe...how accurate was that ???

its a general gunsmithing forum on a benchrest site.....
read the fine print....

mike in co

But I'm simply not with you. This is an accuracy forum.
al

 

[mike in co]

no "pushed" nor "pulled" nor "called" nor otherwise "'splained" shots
al

well al,
its like this unlike you i'm not perfect.
sometime i screw up a shot...sometime when i do it i see it/feel it..know i screwed up.....documented on the target.

so i can call some of my misses...cant tell how much but can tell i pushed or pulled a shot....actually quite common for a good shooter to know when they screw up.

no , what i'd like to hear from you...since you dont mess up shots,
when you blew the muzzle brake off the rifle,
WHERE DID YOU PLOT THE SHOT ??
i'm sure you fixed your brake error, but you do not miss shots,
so when you went back with the revised brake,
how did you log the true first shot in that group ???

you dont make mistakes...well there is the issue of the rifle comming out of the rest, the brake comming off the rifle and going down range somewhere,
but where was the shot al ??

you certainly did not leave it out of the data......

mike in co



"Well, I just learned something, don't make an "expansion chamber" in a muzzlebrake without you port it.

LOL

I spent all afternoon yesterday making an adapter so that I could screw my 5/8-32tpi brakes to a 5/8-28tpi muzzle thread. The resultant adapter had an open "chamber" or 5/8 diameter section about 3/8 long right in front of the muzzle before entering the brake.

The entire apparatus is now somewhere downrange of my bench, NOT in the first 50yds....and the rifle ripped out the back restraint on the sled and launched clear. I caught it before it hit the ground."

 

[alinwa]

Ohhh, lots of questions...

how many mosin nagant rifles have you shot ???

I think, two. Back when they were spelled Moisin Nagant, you're right, I've never owned one.

I have no idea whether I've ever fired the models you mention.

no , what i'd like to hear from you...since you dont mess up shots,
when you blew the muzzle brake off the rifle,
WHERE DID YOU PLOT THE SHOT ??

I mess up shots, I just don't try to explain them. They're IN the true group. All groups include all rounds, no "called misses," every shot counts. Where did I plot the shot when the brake blew off? I didn't. Didn't even have a target up, just a decibel meter and a string to pull to fire the rifle.

again , an opinon, but not based on facts
from the gunsmith forum header...
Equipment, Technique and General Gunsmithing Discussion


not one word about accuracy nor br....

if you look at threads there are all kinds of GENERAL questions
discussions about wore out rem 700...721's
22 mausers.....
you talking about wood...oppsssssssssssssss
you talking about blowing a brake off your rilfe...how accurate was that ???

its a general gunsmithing forum on a benchrest site.....
read the fine print....

mike in co

All true. I'm not sure what you're driving at here but I'm guessing you're asserting that I think everything on BRC MUST have to do with accuracy??? Nope.... not my thought at all, BUT, you stated "this gun is a half-inch gun." THAT STATEMENT refers to an accuracy standard...... you called your Nagant "a 1/2inch gun."

I disagree with that assessment. Nothing on your target indicated that level of accuracy. A'gain, show 5 groups in a row that average under 1/2 inch and I'm SHOWN to be wrong. I will grab my crow-eating spoon and start gagging down the feathers. As my buddy Jesse sez, "you cain't argue with the facts."

well al,
its like this unlike you i'm not perfect.
sometime i screw up a shot...sometime when i do it i see it/feel it..know i screwed up.....documented on the target.

so i can call some of my misses...cant tell how much but can tell i pushed or pulled a shot....actually quite common for a good shooter to know when they screw up.

I just don't really agree with this. In fact this is kinda' the crux of our disagreement I think. At least my part. The whole "called shots" thing. Unlike you I don't claim to be a good shot so when I'm getting consecutive groups that measure 1/2inch in aggregate IT'S GOTTA' BE A HALF-INCH GUN! Then I can say, "I've got a half-inch rifle here." Now that said, I've NEVER SEEN a cheap half-inch rifle. But I've sure seen a lot of rifles that shoot groups like you posted pictures of. I just didn't call them "half-inch guns." I have seen some worked over Savage 110 style guns in 223 that shot half inch with light bullets but nothing in the hundred dollar range.

you dont make mistakes...well there is the issue of the rifle comming out of the rest, the brake comming off the rifle and going down range somewhere,
but where was the shot al ??

And some more with the "you don't make mistakes" thing........ I'm just not sure where this comes from. I revel in my mistakes, I LEARN from my mistakes. And I sure make plenty of them. So I get to learn a lot.

In fact, when you post an aggregate of half-inch groups for that FrogWalloper of yours I'll AGAIN have learned a lesson about challenging the accuracy levels of military rifles.

I don't argue with the facts.

I will then be able to state as fact that a guy on the innertube has pictures of groups fired by an antique Mosin Nagant that rival those of the best sporting arms of the age......

gottaluvvit

al

 

[Charles E]

It's a worse picture than you paint, Al. Somewhere, there are a couple Moisin Nagant's that will shoot 1/2 inch groups. After all, there were thousands and thousands produced.

And there are some, say, 3/4 inch M-N's that can be 'smithed down to 1/2.

But the point of accuracy gunsmithing isn't any of that. It is that after the work, a rifle that won't meet the 1/2 inch group standard is an oddity. For example, starting with a Remington 700 action, we can, by formula, bring almost all of them into the 1/2 in region. Assumes a custom barrel.

So, when MiC can take just about any Moisin Nagant & make a 1/2 inch rifle out of it -- I'd allow 5 consecutive 3-shot groups, all rounds count -- he can make his claim.

Not that I would care or be interested in either the rifle or smith. It's the smith that can make a 1/16 inch rifle that interests me (taking he shooter out of the equation).

 

[mike in co]

charles,
i have you on ignore..but you made a couple of relevant points this time
one..over 20 MILLION BUILT.....
two 1/2 moa from a custom bbl is not hard..very true...this is an ISSUED MIL BBL.
three 3 shot groups for a hunting style rifle..yep it aint a custom br rifle


if one looks at history the russians won lots of gold with 7.62x54r/ mosin nagant based rifles.....

you have a good day

mike in co

It's a worse picture than you paint, Al. Somewhere, there are a couple Moisin Nagant's that will shoot 1/2 inch groups. After all, there were thousands and thousands produced.

And there are some, say, 3/4 inch M-N's that can be 'smithed down to 1/2.

But the point of accuracy gunsmithing isn't any of that. It is that after the work, a rifle that won't meet the 1/2 inch group standard is an oddity. For example, starting with a Remington 700 action, we can, by formula, bring almost all of them into the 1/2 in region. Assumes a custom barrel.

So, when MiC can take just about any Moisin Nagant & make a 1/2 inch rifle out of it -- I'd allow 5 consecutive 3-shot groups, all rounds count -- he can make his claim.

Not that I would care or be interested in either the rifle or smith. It's the smith that can make a 1/16 inch rifle that interests me (taking he shooter out of the equation).

 

[mike in co]

al,
i know things are different up there in the great northwest...oly and raineer beer and all....
but what type of hunting do you engage in where one fires 25 rounds over a mater of mins ??
remember this is a 30 cal centerfire not a varmint gun......

i was thinking a series of three shot groups over time would sorta be like hunting/hunting accuracy ??/

but shucks it just me( and the other 180 some people that are viewing this thread)

heck even charles got the three shot part right..

mike in co

 

[alinwa]

I don't care if you take a month to fire the shots, but to be a "half inch rifle" all the shots together must measure at or under 1/2" c-t-c

IIRC FW Mann did exactly that, stepping out every morning for 25 days and firing a single shot at a target.

This is all really simple, fire five groups, all on the same sheet of paper.

Measure 'em.

al

 

[mike in co]

it may take a month.or more....but it will be three shot groups....
hunting rifle, not a benchrest rifle
i don't work for you, and you don't have a say in what i do nor when i do it
wake up and join the rest of the world...

mike in co

 

[AeroE]

...

 

[alinwa]

Hey, I'm taking issue with one thing...... the idea that it's a half-inch rifle.

Nothing else

I'm sorely tempted though....

Maybe in future I'll take your advice. I'll shut up and let this site become like the other intellectual beauties on the net where the only rule is "tell your fellow poster he's cool and it'll be alright." This whole post would make mike a hero on any number of other sites, just like our current tribal leader's ideas would bring our nation into line with the rest of the world.

I've never felt a compulsion to be like everybody else.

I teach my kids "honesty is weird, weird is good...... in fact weird is essential."

"unless you just want to fit in....."

I guess that when the preponderance of members force BRC to the level of the other sites out there I'll just take refuge elsewhere. I'm sure there are books somewhere I haven't read....




al

 

[Butch Lambert]

Francis,
I'm the second person to question Mike's accuracy claims. If he has a true .5MOA hunting rifle, all he has to do is put 5 groups on a piece of paper.

 

[Boyd Allen]

To me, a half inch rifle is one that has shown itself to be capable of half inch groups any time that the conditions are favorable, the loads right, and the shooter is on his game. This would be a conclusion based on many trips to the range, or at a minimum one trip, with several consistent groups.

I have had a couple of Swedish Mauser's that I have shot groups with, all with open sights, that were under and inch. Some, three shots, quite a bit under. If I would discussing one of those groups I would say that I shot a group that was such and such a size with that rifle, not that it was a such and such rifle. It is just a matter of what convention that you use, back of gun shop, or target shooter. One is no more correct than the other, but it is best to know who you are listening to, and to whom you are speaking, lest there be a misunderstanding.

 

[Charles E]

Just as a sidebar Boyd, Greg Culpepper has a stock (except for scope) Swedish Mauser that use to take the Factory Class matches at Hawks Ridge, shooting against all manner of modern Remingtons & Savages. Now that Hawks Ridge is up & running again, he reports the same, and that there are several shooters looking into getting the Model 96 Swedish Mauser.

I doubt they'd grumble on the half-inch claim. No other military rifles had any success, though...

 

[Boyd Allen]

Charles,
You can tell Greg, that as unlikely as it sounds, if he combines 48 gr. of IMR 4350, Norma brass, and Sierra 100 gr HPs with 210s, he may be seriously impressed at 100 yards. I have loaded hotter than that, so I am not worried about giving the load. The throat is so long on those rifles that I don't worry about seating depth, putting a healthy amount of bullet shank in the case neck, much like you might see in a factory round. Let me know if he tries it.
Boyd

 

[bjld]

Reminds me about a Swedish Mauser a friend has...

My first F Open rifle, back around 2003 or 4, was chambered in 6.5x55. 140 grain AMax, H4350, lapua brass, Federal match primers, all meticulously prepared but not brilliant. Then I built a better gun for 2005 in 6.5x284, 139 grain Scenars, H1000, before the Bergers in 7 mm took hold. The old F Open targets we had in Oz had a 0.5 MOA centre. In its first competitive shoot at Kapunda Rifle Club's Open Prize Meet it put 10 shots in a row into that centre at 500 metres (or yards? Don't remember) over the course of about 10 minutes. In the rain. IIRC I got a cash prize for winning the day AND a sandwich press for that range (later my ex wife kept the sandwich press, but I got to keep the badge). Nice people up at Kapunda. Later that year it did it again at 300 and 400 (we shoot 300 to 900 in F Open in Oz). Now that was a half minute rifle, but that's by Oz F Class not BR standards.

Anyway... I had ammo left over in 6.5x55 and took it to my friend's place and even though it had only been neck sized it chambered easily in that old Swedish Mauser. That Mauser extractor sure is good - stops the loaded rounds from rattling too much in the chamber. Sighted in with the iron sights and the rear leaf adjusted for 300 metres I rested on a fence post and dropped a big 'roo buck on the spot. Now that's a 0.264 minute rifle, every time, with one shot groups.

Regards
Ben

 

[bjld]

Edit - okay, it's 0.0 MOA when you take bullet diameter off the group size, but now y'all gettin' teknikal on me. I'm sure you understand my intent.

 

[bjld]

Al has come on here and made unbelieveable statements of the rifles he has shot and we have chosen not to question those claims. I find it hard to believe that Al can do all he claims to do, while spending hours at the keyboard, earning a living in the concrete business, and found time to sleep. But if he says he has, okay.

Al has thousands of very funny posts - I suggest that there may be others who are tiring of thousands of other posts that could be conceived to be an exercise (excersise??) in something else.

There have been a few threads seemingly converging to this point, things happening to the moderator content, etc.

Is BR Central coming to a nexus about content and moderation?

People can be pretty glib with their posts on the internet, but it's also a powerful tool for discussion.

Geez, there's me getting all meaningful again. Please discuss. I come back to this site time and again for the general level of like minded interest and intelligence.

 

[Charles E]

Is BR Central coming to a nexus about content and moderation?

Probably. It seems inevitable that an internet forum these days is also a social phenomena. Now that I'm no longer a moderator, I can be candid about some topics & people. That's social, I suppose. I've even made reference to a wife recently, something irrelevant on the old BR Central.

Either we keep it a site for like-minded people -- active benchrest competitors -- or I imagine we accept the social function. I think it inevitable. I say "we", but it's really Wilbur, & if you look at it, he made that decision long ago. Amazingly even-tempered & subtle man, Wilbur. Probably what has let this site be one of the best, given how old it is. Just look at what happened to Precision Shooting.

 

[bjld]

Probably. It seems inevitable that an internet forum these days is also a social phenomena.

At least this site has no "social functions" like Facebook! I bought my first smart phone a week ago but I can't figure out howto uninstal it. The virtual keyboard has made it easier to send text messages but I call people first and foremost. Emotional content is lost in text, on a phone or computer screen. Speaking makes for sincerity.

Political content can't be avoided in firearms related discussion. The right to bear arms often gets mentioned but the connection with BR is pretty remote. I can't see any connection between BR and religion and I'm glad that content is virtually zero.

This is the second time within what, a week, that the Gunsmith Forum has evolved this sort of discussion?

Charles: I've been reading your informative posts about 1000 yard BR for a long time and I didn't think it out of place to hear about your wife. She lets you go BR shooting, doesn't she? ;-)

Ben

 

[Charles E]

WHAT??? You weren't candid before???

As usual, you're right, Francis. What I meant was, if I'd used moderator tools for my preferences, I'd have gone to a few user profiles, hit "find posts," selected all of them, & hit the delete function.

Instead, a moderator had to be more or less reasonable. Say "Keep it down, guys," instead of what you really feel like saying.

Or try to find a way through the minefield when some notion of fairness gets taken to absurd levels by a forum member -- usually to make a point on a policy they don't agree with.

I remember when several grumbled because of a post by Jim Kelbly, announcing a new product ("It's sales. It should be deleted. Where are the moderators!!!") Finally, Wilbur himself solved the "problem" in his inimitable way. Bowing to pressure -- or maybe whim -- Wilbur deleted the post by Jim & made the same one under his own name.

I didn't say what I though about all that. Now I could.

Meanwhile, we seem to have lost Jackie and Phil Bower, to name just a couple. If, by being a cantankerous, self-righteous, pompous twit I could trade a few people still posting to get them back... "Oh, Wilbuuuur..."