Greatest miliary firearms designer . . . ?

One more vote for Browning

Garand, Kalashnikov, Stoner, Mauser, Manlicher, Lewis, Vickers, Nambu, Lahti, Schmeisser, Colt, Maxim, Penderson and I will throw in Bochard and Remington but the top of the heap is J M Browning. The rest are more like a one or two hit wonder but Browning is not only the greatest Military Small Arms designer of all time he was the greatest firearms designer of all times.

If he had only designed the 1911, the BAR and the Ma Duce that might have been enough but the .30 cal machine gun and the High Power. I think that the High Power is not really an original J M Browning design but highly derivitive and produce by a company with his name. So I think that fairly covers the military side can you even imagine someone with another name who has a shot at matching this?

Lets add to the list of sporting firearms that Browning designed for Winchester, Remington and Fabricaite Nationale (Browning).

If we only list the Win Model 94 that would be enough but there was the .22 auto, the Auto 5 shotgun or whatever name you label it with. The Remington pumps and autos, the Model 92 Win or the High Wall, and Low Wall. I don't know who designed the Model 95 but I would guess Browning.

Now for a parting shot at Kalashnikov, I don't care how many of they finally make if my claim to fame was my design was cheap and reliable, I would not really brag. As for Stoner, his designs took a long time and a lot of help to get the bugs worked out.

Mauser, some genius there but still a one hit wonder (sort of), I am not sure who was more copied Mauser or Browning but for military arms Turn Bolts did not out last Browning designs.

Granted the domination of the US military has contributed to the supremacy of Browing designs but to a degree the Browning designs have contributed to the subremacy of the US Military>

Tim
 
I certainly don't disagree..

German Salazar said:
Tim, the High Power was a Browning design, his last. The Winchester 95 was all his too.

I think your last sentence is a really well phrased summary of Browning's influence. I also agree that the turn-bolt rifle was relatively short lived in military use and in any event, the Mauser, while the apex of that design was not "game changing" to the extent that Browning's machine guns or Garand's rifle were. From the standpoint of sporting arms, Mauser's design has, of course, been far longer lived than in military use.
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that Browning is probably at the top of the heap when you consider the sheer number of designs he authored and the influence they had on both the military and civilian sport shooters and hunters. The Einstein of firearms designers.
 
Nambu was a prolifically bad firearms designer--his MGs were almost universally ripoffs of Hotchkiss and Vickers guns, with a few design flaws added to make them unique. Don't even mention the pistols. Japan was a formidable enemy because of the men, not the machines.
 
Paul Fielder said:
I remember reading that Colt got some assistance from Mr. Browning on his lever guns;)


If Browning had the same biz sense that he did designing guns...WOW!!
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The Colt lever actions were a Burgis design, Browning designed improved locking mechanisms for leveractions made by Winchester, the 1886 and 1892 models which evolved into the classic 1894 leveraction we know so well.

The toggle link locking mechanism may have been the brain child of an unknown European gunsmith, possibly Italian.
Its said that the original Volcanic rocket ball guns were a development of a rare gallery target pistol used in small numbers in Europe and firing primitive forerunners of the BB Cap, basically just a percussion cap with a birdshot stuck in the mouth. Those were never serious weapons, more like a toy or novelty.

The modern FN GMP and such use much of the BAR design.

Personally I don't consider numbers produced to be a measure of excellence of design. Also the basic AK action was an adaptation of the M1 Carbine bolt and trigger group to a sheet metal hull. It combined known and tested features rather than introducing new ones.
 
Certainly...

Old Gunner said:
The Colt lever actions were a Burgis design, Browning designed improved locking mechanisms for leveractions made by Winchester, the 1886 and 1892 models which evolved into the classic 1894 leveraction we know so well.

The toggle link locking mechanism may have been the brain child of an unknown European gunsmith, possibly Italian.
Its said that the original Volcanic rocket ball guns were a development of a rare gallery target pistol used in small numbers in Europe and firing primitive forerunners of the BB Cap, basically just a percussion cap with a birdshot stuck in the mouth. Those were never serious weapons, more like a toy or novelty.

The modern FN GMP and such use much of the BAR design.

Personally I don't consider numbers produced to be a measure of excellence of design. Also the basic AK action was an adaptation of the M1 Carbine bolt and trigger group to a sheet metal hull. It combined known and tested features rather than introducing new ones.
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the German late WW II Stg 44 had an influence on the overal configuration of the AK 47 as well as the cartridge it fired.
 
Best

If you go by the lasting success of one design, John Browning is tops. His M-2 50 Caliber Heavy Machine Gun was brought into service just at the end of WW-1, and is still in service to this day, surprisingly with little change. Few pieces of machinery can boast of such success.

If you have ever had the priveledge to shoot one, it is pure pleasure.

That is, untill it's barrel change time and you can't find those big insulated gloves:D..........jackie
 
I agree that JMB is the greatest of the giants.

But,
never forget that he would not stand anything like as tall without standing on the shoulders of the other giants.

Lee, Mauser and Mannlicher, for the box magazine
Mauser for the stripper
Mannlicher for the en bloc charger (as used by garand)
Maxim for recoil operation
Maxim, and mannlicher for gas operation
The unknown Italian, and maxim for the accelerator in recoil operation (the accelerator is an intrinsic part of the operation of the toggle action, virtually un known to gun writers, but well known to Browning and Lahti, who developed replacements for toggle action guns, even some of Browning's last patents were for toggle actions)
Bergman for blowback operation.
Mannlicher for blow forward operation

We have hardly mentioned the Russians
Fyodeov - inventer of the assault rifle
Sphagin, who turned Lahti's reliable Suomi SMG into a mass produceable item

Don't decry the production engineering side of it, Lugers took over 800 seperate machining set ups and cuts, that's a lot of skilled men and machines tied up. MP40s required specialist stamping dies and manufacture. the resistance could make stens by the thousand at home to shoot the guys who carried lugers and MP40s. Phil Luty looks like he has done even better in simplifying building.

Sure, Mikhial Timmofeyovich only put garand's bolt and trigger group into a remmington receiver, and put the gas cylinder into the right place, and...:D

I mean, what does an orchestral conductor do but wave his hands about infront of a bunch of musicians? what does a composer do but puts notes other people have used before him into a different order, a writer does the same with words ..... I can do that, Gis a job!;)
 
jackie schmidt said:
If you go by the lasting success of one design, John Browning is tops. His M-2 50 Caliber Heavy Machine Gun was brought into service just at the end of WW-1, and is still in service to this day, surprisingly with little change. Few pieces of machinery can boast of such success.

If you have ever had the priveledge to shoot one, it is pure pleasure.

That is, untill it's barrel change time and you can't find those big insulated gloves:D..........jackie
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Thats a good point but I got one a bit longer. One of my mauser 98 actions is 112 years old and still operating as a working field weapon. There are millions like mine still out there being used.
So on that criteior Mauser is greater.
 
I think that Mauser's pinnacle of design was his ¼ x 22 action screws - the only acceptable thread pitch that was available on both imperial & metric lathe gearsets.
 
"In my opinion, the M1 Rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised."
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It is not perfect. For one thing, it is very heavy-- probably heavier than it needs to be.

For another shortcoming, it automatically pops the clip when the last round fires. In WW II the enemy used to listen for the "ping" when the clips popped -- thus knowing when the Americans were shot dry and needed to reload.

I could go on. I am not saying it is/was not a classic. But when you say "best" you are going to have a debate.
 
Well they made a movie about "Carbine" Williams. I just can't get my head wrapped around the utility of a pistol that won't fit into a holster. Just goes to show how much Hollywood knows about firearms.
 
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Pete...

Montana Pete said:
It is not perfect. For one thing, it is very heavy-- probably heavier than it needs to be.

For another shortcoming, it automatically pops the clip when the last round fires. In WW II the enemy used to listen for the "ping" when the clips popped -- thus knowing when the Americans were shot dry and needed to reload.

I could go on. I am not saying it is/was not a classic. But when you say "best" you are going to have a debate.
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maybe not the best design that Garand could have come up with, but for the state of knowledge, materials and manufacturing methods the M1 Garand was pretty good. It far outclassed both the Jap and German infantry small arms and that was a huge tactical advantage. As far as the ping of the enbloc being ejected, true enough, but a lot of those pings were empty enblocs being thrown on the ground to simulate an empty rifle. :)

It's a bit on the heavy side, but that brings robustness that enabled it to survive in a dirty, rough combat environment. And, most of the luggers were teen and early 20 year olds! Man, to be in that shape again. --Greg
 
i cant believe people keep bringing up that bulldung fairy tail about the enemy listening and waiting for the ping of the M1 ejecting its clip!
 
Montana Pete said:
It is not perfect. For one thing, it is very heavy-- probably heavier than it needs to be.

For another shortcoming, it automatically pops the clip when the last round fires. In WW II the enemy used to listen for the "ping" when the clips popped -- thus knowing when the Americans were shot dry and needed to reload.

I could go on. I am not saying it is/was not a classic. But when you say "best" you are going to have a debate.
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Listen for the ping?
Did you ever hear one of the "enemy" in ww11 say that ?
I never had a North Korean or chinese tell me that...
All nonsence.
 
lefty o said:
i cant believe people keep bringing up that bulldung fairy tail about the enemy listening and waiting for the ping of the M1 ejecting its clip!
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Having been in combat myself . I also find it hard to see how you could hear the ping of the clip over the noise of battle.
However maybe in certain special circumstances where only two people are shooting at eachother it may be possible but you would have to be awful close I would think.
I thought the pinging of an ejected clip related to the 30 -06 Gerand not the M1 carbine.
The M1 carbine had a removable magazine .
 
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it is the M1 garand that ejects its clip. having fired many thousand rounds from the M1 rifle, i can tell you there are times when i dont notice/hear my own rifle ejecting its clip. then if we factor in others shooting(at you , and next to you), and having no hearing protection, the odds of hearing that little ping are slim to none. now lets factor in the speed of reloading an M1 rifle, it can be done faster than any other battle rifle if your proficient, so that in itself gives the enemy one very narrow window when your empty. last but not least, if my rifle runs dry, the guy next to me , and the guy next to him etc, etc are probably not empty. the whole enemy waiting to hear the ping is just an ignorant old wives tale that wont die!
 
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