GOOD NEWS! 'Ultralite' stocks.

The problem here

is something NEW. It appears to me that the stock supports the action and the forend is clamped to the barrel, not unlike on roling block rifles as a previous writer observed. There is no bedding, as there is none with a Rolling Block rifle. I think this was the point of the entire exercise.
 
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Say, Gene, are you...........

going to offer a "Varminter's" stock/block/forend thingy-wangy for genuine-dyed-in-the-wool PEST-POPPERS anytime soon????????

I know I, and I know there are others, who will want to know, if the angle on the butt for pasture-predator-poppers can be changed so as to effect a cheek-weld, and provide a spot to position a cheek-weld-cheek-warmer for cold weather use.
Now, I know that was all tongue-in-cheek, so to speak, but I am serious, I believe it will bring new levels of accuracy possible, but my questions are based on cold-weather shooting. Sure would hate to have to come home & get th' ol' lady to fire up a torch to get it offa my face ( "Where's Flick??"):D
 
I have to be very careful about what I say here...

....in that I am really pretty new at this director thing. But, I do know that there is a process to determine the legality of certain innovations that seem to push the rules. That process starts by either a formal proposal for a rules change or a protest that needs to be acted on. Things sometimes move slowly, but it seems that is how our governing bodies work so as to avoid a "rush to judgment". I'm not saying that is good, it just is.

The NBRSA Directors (as well as the IBS Officers) have always had to walk a tightrope between the objective of "development and encouragement of extreme accuracy" and what falls within the rules of competition. It often seems to turn into an "old guard" versus "new guard" argument. Again, I'm not saying that is good, it just is.

I have seen Gene's set-up at a few matches, but had the same thoughts that Jackie had mentioned; that being until someone starts to dominate with the thing in competition, it may not be taken seriously enough to challenge it. It may work, but one guy shooting it occasionally at a very few matches may not be giving it a fair chance. Competition is the crucible from which great ideas are validated. We need to make sure that it meets the rules before too many guys shell out and then we have issue with its legality later. And maybe that starts with a proposal to define the rules better. Gene took the initiative to put his own "skin in the game" and he should be applauded for it. And if it works, then the sport is made better for it.

That being said, I'd like to take off my director's hat and put on my competitor's hat for a minute. I have three questions that I saw with it; and maybe they are "non-events", but if my nontechnical mind entertained them, then maybe others (more technical) have the same questions.

First, does the action flex? Doesn't the barrel now become a cantilever and part of the structural framework of the rifle where under more "normal" applications it is simply the portion of the system that points the muzzle in the direction that the bullet will eventually be pushed? There seems to be quite a bit of pressure exerted on that one point of where the barrel connects to the action. I always believed that the action should be as stable (I call it inert) as possible as part of the platform that holds the barrel when the gun goes off. In my non-technical mind, I always view that the barrel is the part of the total system that moves the most during the firing of the gun and the remainder of the gun should be as "nonmoving" (stable? inert? whatever?) as the "system" moves on the bags. (I almost said "moves backwards", but we all know that the rifle moves backward and torques sideways from the action of the bullet moving down the rifles barrel with some resistance.) It just seems to me that there are more stresses on the action and barrel and potential for movement when the barrel becomes part of the structure that needs to also handle the stresses that we put on the entire system when we touch off 60,000 psi. It just seems to me that we are asking the barrel to do two things: be part of the structure and also do what a barrel is supposed to do. What am I missing here?

Second, we know that barrels move; we can see the affect of that on our targets. Heck, whenever we change some tuning dynamic, the point of impact changes (sometimes dramatically) on the target. The kinds of things that cause the barrel to move (like a 60,000 psi explosion and the forces of a bullet of a certain diameter being dramically shoved and turned on its axis through a 20+ inch length via a hole of a smaller diameter). That area of the action (especially smaller diameter steel or aluminum) just looks like it is prone to flexing. (Heck, I like to shoot larger diameter actions - in the area of 1.470 to 1.550 diameter stainless - in lighter stocks simply just to remove the real or perceived possibility of action flexing that rattles around in my mind.)

And if all of these forces do cause either the action or barrel (or both) to flex, how does that affect the fact that the aiming device (meaning the scope) is on something that is moving around (assuming that the muzzle is also moving around as the bullet moves down the barrel). Aren't we asking the system to be awfully stable when we are introducing more opportunity for movement and stresses into it? Isn't one of the bigger improvements in rifle accuracy considered to be when the scope mounting was removed from being part on the barrel and part on the action to having all of the scope mounted on the action? Heck, I saw a picture on the rimfire board last week where Bill Calfee mounts his scopes with both rings on the front base so as to avoid minute heat-induced expansion from affecting his aluminum scope which has a different coefficient of expansion than his action on which it is mounted.

Third, does the placement of the "fore end" under your system have an impact on how the barrel vibrates? Does it shoot differently if the "fore end" (loosely defined) is moved back to where it falls within the perceived "barrel block" rules? Does it shoot differently if the apparatus is moved to the muzzle end of the barrel? (More stresses? Who knows?) With all of your work on tuners in an attempt to keep the muzzle from moving as much as without them, I would think that there is also some considerable work being done on your "fore end" placement. How do you know where the optimal placement on the barrel should be?

I do know two things: until it gets to beating up on the benchrest masses, there will be some skepticism (justified or not). The tuner has made some inroads, but I don't believe that I am wrong by saying that it hasn't yet been accepted by the benchrest masses. (I do know that some of the National-level competitors are using them today, but more so as "muzzle snubbers" than as tuning devices. Perhaps we have just scratched the surface on this one, too.)

And second, I am not an experimenter. I have too little range time to do what I like to in this sport. And I am more of a competitor (some may challenge that comment) than a scientist. And what that means is that whenever one of you experimenters come up with something that does work, I (and 99% of the competitive benchrest world) will be jumping on it in no time.

Get the thing into enough hands of the shooting community and both the rules and the performance concerns will work themselves out over time.

I am not even going to try and question the 4198 load development. I have seen quite a few guys try and stay on top of it in a 6 PPC during the course of even one day at a match, let alone an entire week at a Super Shoot or Nationals. I just haven't seen too many shooters dominating with it in a PPC-like cartridge over the course of a match of any duration. I don't know anything about it in a .30 BR, and I know guys have been shooting it in the .22 PPc -.100, but in the sixes it just is too "spikey". Maybe we are all will learn something from this. I am wondering about what powder that guy who just shot the 300-yard unlimited group record with your 6mm Beggs cartridge was using? I thought it was 133, but I'm not sure.
 
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I'm too new to say anything. I'm always interested in new twists on things. In a benchrest rifle with a glued-in action, isn't all the opposing forces due to the weight of the rifle on the stock? Draw a free body diagram. Now on this one there is an upward force supporting the barrel at the front rest, the butt resides on the rear bag, attached to the tang. I didn't mean to butt in. I'll have to do some pondering here. I bet it shoots better than most shooters. This forum may get me fired from my job.
 
This was brought up about a month ago, and Wilbur stated that the rule was suppose to be in the book, and had no explanation as to why it was not. He said that He and Don were on top of it.

He also stated that shooters should avoid building any Rifles based on the rule being admitted.

Go to search, and type in "bedding block rules". The post by Boyd Allen is what brought this up.

I talked to Scott Hunter, and my attitude is now, "to heck with it". The general attitude, (it seems), is untill some one actually wins something using the stock,, (preferrably at a National Event), or perhaps some one shoots a record, nobody will offer up a protest.

The rule book is full of all sorts of ambiguos items, like forearm widths, weights of Rifles, stock dimensions, barrel profiles, action lengths, etc, that were instituted in the past, for the most part, so that what we use in Competition would at least resemble what the public considers a "Rifle".

Gene is a good friend, and I certainly do not want to stand in the way of his enterprise. It would not bother me one bit if they just left that "bedding block" retoric out of the rule book........jackie


Thank you Jackie, I appreciate the kind words. :)

Gene Beggs
 
going to offer a "Varminter's" stock/block/forend thingy-wangy for genuine-dyed-in-the-wool PEST-POPPERS anytime soon????????

I know I, and I know there are others, who will want to know, if the angle on the butt for pasture-predator-poppers can be changed so as to effect a cheek-weld, and provide a spot to position a cheek-weld-cheek-warmer for cold weather use.
Now, I know that was all tongue-in-cheek, so to speak, but I am serious, I believe it will bring new levels of accuracy possible, but my questions are based on cold-weather shooting. Sure would hate to have to come home & get th' ol' lady to fire up a torch to get it offa my face ( "Where's Flick??"):D


Brian, the Ultralite stock was designed for benchrest rifles only, and would not be suitable for any kind of hunting rifle. Sorry. :eek:

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
Ultra lite stock

Joe Krupa, you should have been a politician. Not meaning that to be slam by any means.......you have pondered the topic and gave your honest opinion without stepping on toes. Gene has interpreted the rules to the best of his ability, and deemed the new stock to be legal, or he would not have taken it to the point it is today. I give him great praise for his dedication to furthering the sport.
Personally, I look at items 1 and 2 under the objectives of the NBRSA and see "go for it".
"The developement and encouragement of extreme accuracy....." and "The achievement of extreme precision....." don't seem to fit with "under certain limitations" (my words).
This would lead you to believe BR should be strictly Unlimited, and that is not the case. Several classes are needed to add some spice to the mix, and I feel bag guns with 2 weight limits, and the unlimited class work well.
I really don't think "unfair advantage" should be considered, or the whole purpose of Benchrest is compromised.
Bryan
 
Thanks to Joe Krupa

....in that I am really pretty new at this director thing. But, I do know that there is a process to determine the legality of certain innovations that seem to push the rules. That process starts by either a formal proposal for a rules change or a protest that needs to be acted on. Things sometimes move slowly, but it seems that is how our governing bodies work so as to avoid a "rush to judgment". I'm not saying that is good, it just is.

The NBRSA Directors (as well as the IBS Officers) have always had to walk a tightrope between the objective of "development and encouragement of extreme accuracy" and what falls within the rules of competition. It often seems to turn into an "old guard" versus "new guard" argument. Again, I'm not saying that is good, it just is.

I have seen Gene's set-up at a few matches, but had the same thoughts that Jackie had mentioned; that being until someone starts to dominate with the thing in competition, it may not be taken seriously enough to challenge it. It may work, but one guy shooting it occasionally at a very few matches may not be giving it a fair chance. Competition is the crucible from which great ideas are validated. We need to make sure that it meets the rules before too many guys shell out and then we have issue with its legality later. And maybe that starts with a proposal to define the rules better. Gene took the initiative to put his own "skin in the game" and he should be applauded for it. And if it works, then the sport is made better for it.

That being said, I'd like to take off my director's hat and put on my competitor's hat for a minute. I have three questions that I saw with it; and maybe they are "non-events", but if my nontechnical mind entertained them, then maybe others (more technical) have the same questions.

First, does the action flex? Doesn't the barrel now become a cantilever and part of the structural framework of the rifle where under more "normal" applications it is simply the portion of the system that points the muzzle in the direction that the bullet will eventually be pushed? There seems to be quite a bit of pressure exerted on that one point of where the barrel connects to the action. I always believed that the action should be as stable (I call it inert) as possible as part of the platform that holds the barrel when the gun goes off. In my non-technical mind, I always view that the barrel is the part of the total system that moves the most during the firing of the gun and the remainder of the gun should be as "nonmoving" (stable? inert? whatever?) as the "system" moves on the bags. (I almost said "moves backwards", but we all know that the rifle moves backward and torques sideways from the action of the bullet moving down the rifles barrel with some resistance.) It just seems to me that there are more stresses on the action and barrel and potential for movement when the barrel becomes part of the structure that needs to also handle the stresses that we put on the entire system when we touch off 60,000 psi. It just seems to me that we are asking the barrel to do two things: be part of the structure and also do what a barrel is supposed to do. What am I missing here?

Second, we know that barrels move; we can see the affect of that on our targets. Heck, whenever we change some tuning dynamic, the point of impact changes (sometimes dramatically) on the target. The kinds of things that cause the barrel to move (like a 60,000 psi explosion and the forces of a bullet of a certain diameter being dramically shoved and turned on its axis through a 20+ inch length via a hole of a smaller diameter). That area of the action (especially smaller diameter steel or aluminum) just looks like it is prone to flexing. (Heck, I like to shoot larger diameter actions - in the area of 1.470 to 1.550 diameter stainless - in lighter stocks simply just to remove the real or perceived possibility of action flexing that rattles around in my mind.)

And if all of these forces do cause either the action or barrel (or both) to flex, how does that affect the fact that the aiming device (meaning the scope) is on something that is moving around (assuming that the muzzle is also moving around as the bullet moves down the barrel). Aren't we asking the system to be awfully stable when we are introducing more opportunity for movement and stresses into it? Isn't one of the bigger improvements in rifle accuracy considered to be when the scope mounting was removed from being part on the barrel and part on the action to having all of the scope mounted on the action? Heck, I saw a picture on the rimfire board last week where Bill Calfee mounts his scopes with both rings on the front base so as to avoid minute heat-induced expansion from affecting his aluminum scope which has a different coefficient of expansion than his action on which it is mounted.

Third, does the placement of the "fore end" under your system have an impact on how the barrel vibrates? Does it shoot differently if the "fore end" (loosely defined) is moved back to where it falls within the perceived "barrel block" rules? Does it shoot differently if the apparatus is moved to the muzzle end of the barrel? (More stresses? Who knows?) With all of your work on tuners in an attempt to keep the muzzle from moving as much as without them, I would think that there is also some considerable work being done on your "fore end" placement. How do you know where the optimal placement on the barrel should be?

I do know two things: until it gets to beating up on the benchrest masses, there will be some skepticism (justified or not). The tuner has made some inroads, but I don't believe that I am wrong by saying that it hasn't yet been accepted by the benchrest masses. (I do know that some of the National-level competitors are using them today, but more so as "muzzle snubbers" than as tuning devices. Perhaps we have just scratched the surface on this one, too.)

And second, I am not an experimenter. I have too little range time to do what I like to in this sport. And I am more of a competitor (some may challenge that comment) than a scientist. And what that means is that whenever one of you experimenters come up with something that does work, I (and 99% of the competitive benchrest world) will be jumping on it in no time.

Get the thing into enough hands of the shooting community and both the rules and the performance concerns will work themselves out over time.

I am not even going to try and question the 4198 load development. I have seen quite a few guys try and stay on top of it in a 6 PPC during the course of even one day at a match, let alone an entire week at a Super Shoot or Nationals. I just haven't seen too many shooters dominating with it in a PPC-like cartridge over the course of a match of any duration. I don't know anything about it in a .30 BR, and I know guys have been shooting it in the .22 PPc -.100, but in the sixes it just is too "spikey". Maybe we are all will learn something from this. I am wondering about what powder that guy who just shot the 300-yard unlimited group record with your 6mm Beggs cartridge was using? I thought it was 133, but I'm not sure.



Joe,

Thanks for the words of wisdom and for your well-written response to this thread. I'll do my best to answer your questions.

You asked,

"Does the action flex; doesn't the barrel now become a cantilever and part of the structural framework of the rifle? There seems to be quite a bit of pressure exerted on that one point where the barrel connects to the action."

Joe, I'm sure the action flexes when the rifle is fired regardless of the type of stock. With the Ultralite the barrel, action, and buttstock are all joined together as one to become a single, load-bearing member.

With conventional BR stocks and free-floated barrels, the barrel is supported by the action; it simply hangs out into space. With the Ultralite, the barrel and tuner are supported by the front rest, not the receiver.

No matter how long or heavy the barrel, the rifle can still be balanced perfectly by placing the forend in the correct position. There is no need to place dead weight in the buttstock to balance the rifle. With the Ultralite, one can take full advantage of a long, heavy barrel.

The barrel/receiver joint is the strongest part of the rifle; there is no concern for overstressing this joint. There is also no reason to use large, heavy actions with the Ultralite.

As far as scope mounting is concerned, yes there will be some flex in the scope and its mounting hardware when the rifle is fired but everything returns to its normal position and vibration ceases almost immediately.

Once the rifle is reloaded, placed back into battery and point of aim reestablished, everything is just sitting there motionless. Barrel and scope are pointing to the same point, there is no vibration or flex until you pull the trigger again.

Hope this helps. :)

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
Gene,
Where did you get your butt stock angle info? Is the angle the same regardless of the length of pull. I am speaking of the NBRSA rules.
Butch
 
Gene,
Where did you get your butt stock angle info? Is the angle the same regardless of the length of pull. I am speaking of the NBRSA rules.
Butch


Butch, I drew out a full-size drawing on cardboard based on the information in the NBRSA rule book on varmint class stocks. With a 13.5 inch length of pull, I found the angle to be 7 degrees. Yes, this will vary slightly if you change the length of pull, but I believe you will find that within reason, 7 degrees will cover it. I chose 8 degrees for the Ultralite just to be on the safe side.

Gene Beggs
 
Gene, I think that they need to designate an angle. It is unfair to somebody with short arms that may need a 12LOP to shoot free recoil. They need to remember that we are not hunting and wearing Tshirts.
Butch
 
Weight limit

I believe set a weight limit and have at it. Modern equipment has no real world connection to what you used to go hunting with. Its racing.:D
 
I was wondering

Gene, your design is brilliant, I've marveled at it's elegant simplicity since first seeing it on www.6mmbr.com .

Joe had some thought provoking questions about rigidity and vibrations. I don't think there's any way to stop a rifle from vibrating when fired, nor would we want to; they're just big tuning forks, after all. The real objective is to get them to vibrate in exactly the same manner, shot after shot. Tuners, barrel profiles, indexing, and other methods that we apply (knowingly or unknowingly) affect the repeatability of the vibration pattern and when we hit on that magic combination that allows or forces the rifle into a consistent, repeatable vibration pattern, we're on the road to a winning combination.

Formula 1 and other high end race cars have used the engine block as a stressed member for over 40 years, they hang all the suspension bits right off the block, making it do double duty to save weight. Sound familiar? The Tubeguns we're using more and more in Highpower shooting also hang the buttstock and forend right off the sleeved action (see www.competitionshootingstuff.com for instance). We can't make progress, especially in the area of weight reduction, if we continue to treat the action as untouchable and the Ultralite stock is a real step forward - nicely done.

Why tube rifles used action sleeves; thanks for my not having to ask a dumb question! :D
 
Gene, your design is brilliant, I've marveled at it's elegant simplicity since first seeing it on www.6mmbr.com .

Joe had some thought provoking questions about rigidity and vibrations. I don't think there's any way to stop a rifle from vibrating when fired, nor would we want to; they're just big tuning forks, after all. The real objective is to get them to vibrate in exactly the same manner, shot after shot. Tuners, barrel profiles, indexing, and other methods that we apply (knowingly or unknowingly) affect the repeatability of the vibration pattern and when we hit on that magic combination that allows or forces the rifle into a consistent, repeatable vibration pattern, we're on the road to a winning combination.

Formula 1 and other high end race cars have used the engine block as a stressed member for over 40 years, they hang all the suspension bits right off the block, making it do double duty to save weight. Sound familiar? The Tubeguns we're using more and more in Highpower shooting also hang the buttstock and forend right off the sleeved action (see www.competitionshootingstuff.com for instance). We can't make progress, especially in the area of weight reduction, if we continue to treat the action as untouchable and the Ultralite stock is a real step forward - nicely done.


German, from the bottom of my heart, thank you sir! You made my day. :)

Best regards,

Gene Beggs
 
Perhaps the placement of the metal which rides the front bag offers harmonic benefits.

This would seem to make that piece of metal less barrel block like and more tuner like.

Could the metal be thought of as a continuation or second stage of the muzzle attachment?

With Joe's background in law he knows how complex and cumbersome rules and more rules become in any issue.

My feeling is that we should never legislate backwards; make rules which allow for development and exploration of new ideas. This would seem consistant with the core pursuit of extreme accuracy. Like many have said or implied already, let the market (benchresters @ a big event), sort it out

See ya'll @ the Hog Roast, I'm tired of winter!

Mike
 
Perhaps the placement of the metal which rides the front bag offers harmonic benefits.

This would seem to make that piece of metal less barrel block like and more tuner like.

Could the metal be thought of as a continuation or second stage of the muzzle attachment?

With Joe's background in law he knows how complex and cumbersome rules and more rules become in any issue.

My feeling is that we should never legislate backwards; make rules which allow for development and exploration of new ideas. This would seem consistant with the core pursuit of extreme accuracy. Like many have said or implied already, let the market (benchresters @ a big event), sort it out

See ya'll @ the Hog Roast, I'm tired of winter!

Mike


Mike thanks for your input and wise suggestion that we never "Legislate backwards." Well said. :)

In your comments above, you suggested,

"Perhaps the placement of the metal which rides the front bag offers harmonic benefits."

(GB) No, the forend/bag rider of the Ultralite is just that; nothing more nothing less. It has little or no effect on barrel vibration and is not connected in any way with the function of the tuner.

An Ultralite rifle tunes and prints on the target exactly the same as any other benchrest rifle. When it's completely out of tune, (Half turn on the Beggs tuner) it shows two bullet holes of vertical, one bullet hole of vertical indicates a quarter turn out of tune.

Yes, I'm tired of winter also, and ours has just begun here in West Texas. It actually froze this morning shortly before daylight and the high is forecast to be only 65 degrees. :eek: How will we stand it? :eek: :D

Hey, you know what; this would be a good time to get on an airliner and fly out to Midland for some shooting in the tunnel; what do you say? ;)

Later,

Gene Beggs
 
I'll try one, Gene:

And I will be brutally honest. Send me one that will fit a Bat round action (1.470 or 1.550) and a light varmint taper barrel. Send me a tuner that will also fit the same taper barrel and I will have someone local put it on. (Huckeba and Bukys have been pestering me to try one.)

Send me an invoice, too. I will have to shoot it with a 6 PPC; I'm not ready to make the full committment to a new chambering. But, I will try the strock/tuner set-up and do a decent shake-down.

If it works, I'll let everyone know. Heck, I'll even do an article in PS magazine.

If it doesn't, I'll let you know.

PM me and I will send you the shipping address.

Joe Krupa
 
That's great, Joe

I look forward to the outcome.
You have a platform that works, but you are willing to try something else. And, being a director, you will have first hand experience with an item that is questionable......to some.
If anyone can wring out a new stock design in real world conditions, it would be you.
I commend you for your offer to Gene, and the BR community in general;)
Bryan
 
Mike ...

My feeling is that we should never legislate backwards; make rules which allow for development and exploration of new ideas. This would seem consistent with the core pursuit of extreme accuracy. Like many have said or implied already, let the market (benchresters @ a big event), sort it out.

Well said !!!
 
YES, YES, YES !!!!! My Prayers have been answered!

And I will be brutally honest. Send me one that will fit a Bat round action (1.470 or 1.550) and a light varmint taper barrel. Send me a tuner that will also fit the same taper barrel and I will have someone local put it on. (Huckeba and Bukys have been pestering me to try one.)

Send me an invoice, too. I will have to shoot it with a 6 PPC; I'm not ready to make the full committment to a new chambering. But, I will try the strock/tuner set-up and do a decent shake-down.

If it works, I'll let everyone know. Heck, I'll even do an article in PS magazine.

If it doesn't, I'll let you know.

PM me and I will send you the shipping address.

Joe Krupa



Joe, you have made not only my day, you have made my year! :D

Fantastic! ,,, who could possibly be better suited and qualified to give the Ultralite a good shakedown? :D :D

Wow, I'm in shock. :eek: :)

Gene Beggs
 
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