GOOD NEWS! 'Ultralite' stocks.

[Gene Beggs]

The 6mm Sporter - The most versatile and popular benchrest rifle ever !

Armed with one good Sporter, you can compete heads-up with anything on the line in LV, HV, and Sporter categories of NBRSA and IBS santioned competition.

Prior to the introduction of Leupold's Competition series scopes and most recently the March scopes, the 10.5 lb weight limit was no problem but with the increased popularity of heavier scopes and most recently tuners, staying within 10.5 pounds was difficult if not impossible. Impossible that is,, until now.

As many of you know, I have been hard at work for over two years, developing an all-aluminum 'Ultralite' stock. The first rifle was completed today and you will not believe the specs.

1. Stiller/Cobra drop-port action.

2. Jewell trigger.

3. Krieger 13.5 twist LV barrel chambered in 6mm Beggs no-turn, .274 neck and get this,,,,, 24 inches from bolt face to crown.

4. Beggs, 'Ultralite' stock.

5. Beggs tuner.

6. Leu/Brackney 45 scope.

7. Lapua 220 Russian case, right out of the box, necked up to 6mm and loaded with 26 grains of H4198 Extreme ignited by a Wolf SRM primer behind a Bart's 68 grain HH6 bullet. Muzzle velocity? 3380.

Weight?

10.28 lbs with the Leu45.

9.98 lbs with a Jackie Schmidt frozen Leu 36 in Buky's mount.

What do you think guys?

Later,

Gene Beggs

 

[Big Al]

"WHAT DO YOU GUY'S THINK"?

I think pictures are in order! We want pictures, "NOW"!

 

[Pete Wass]

I guess the question is

is the Gentry gonna let one use them?

 

[Donald]

Gene,
Does you set up still use the clamp on block on the barrel for a fore end? And if so, does this not upset the tune of the barrel or does the tuner bring every thing back into tune? The reason I ask is because I have a plinking rifle, NEF Handi in 223. The fore end clamps to the barrel and that rifle is super critical as to where you rest the fore end. It shoots best with the action setting on the rest. Inquiring minds.....
Donald

 

[Pete Wass]

I'm not Gene but

Gene,
Does you set up still use the clamp on block on the barrel for a fore end? And if so, does this not upset the tune of the barrel or does the tuner bring every thing back into tune? The reason I ask is because I have a plinking rifle, NEF Handi in 223. The fore end clamps to the barrel and that rifle is super critical as to where you rest the fore end. It shoots best with the action setting on the rest. Inquiring minds.....
Donald

I have often wondered if perhpas the joint where the barrel fits into the receiver on the Handi Rifle was the culprit. I bought two of them years ago and found it to be a chore to make them shoot because of the scope mount. That overhang, as they come is a disaster. I installed a set screw to stiffen mine but they were never accurate enough to suit me.

 

[Don]

The 6mm Sporter - The most versatile and popular benchrest rifle ever !



What do you think guys?

Later,

Gene Beggs

Get one to finish in the top five of the Cactus, Supershoot, and/or Nationals, you will have yourself a winner!

Otherwise, this will simply be a passion of love and immense personal satisfaction. Good luck with this Gene.......................Don

 

[donjfred]

Get one to finish in the top five of the Cactus, Supershoot, and/or Nationals, you will have yourself a winner!

Otherwise, this will simply be a passion of love and immense personal satisfaction. Good luck with this Gene.......................Don

Why not at the "Winds of Manatee" in February?

 

[Gene Beggs]

is the Gentry gonna let one use them?

Pete, who's the 'Gentry?'

As far as I know, Jackie Schmidt is the only one who questions the legality of my 'Ultralite' stock. This in spite of the fact that both the President and Vice President of NBRSA declared it perfectly legal. That's okay Jackie, I still love you man!

Jackie has been shooting all day at Tomball, so he hasn't had a chance to read this thread but you can bet your boots he will be on here pretty quick.

I can tell you why Jackie objects to my Ultralite Sporter chambered in 6mm Beggs;

"He's scared to death of it!"

Sure,, the sneaky rascal. Isn't that right Jackie?

Jackie wants to reclaim that Gulf Coast shooter of the year trophy, after all, he made it; didn't he? He knows that in the hands of a good shooter, my little Ultralite Sporter is dangerous.

Jackie, I'll tell you what; send me a new Krieger barrel and I'll chamber it for you in 6mm Beggs .269 neck for which you already have the die and bushings. I'll even throw in one of my tuners and show you how to use it. Adjust your powder measure to throw 26.3 grains of H4198 Extreme and forget it; you will never have to change it again. Use Lester Bruno's 00 boattail bullets that you have been shooting so successfully and I'll be surprised if you don't win that Gulf Coast title again.

What do you say?

Gene Beggs

 

[Gene Beggs]

Gene,
Does your set up still use the clamp on block on the barrel for a fore end? And if so, does this not upset the tune of the barrel or does the tuner bring every thing back into tune? The reason I ask is because I have a plinking rifle, NEF Handi in 223. The fore end clamps to the barrel and that rifle is super critical as to where you rest the fore end. It shoots best with the action setting on the rest. Inquiring minds.....
Donald

Donald,

Yes, the forend of the Ultralite clamps directly to the barrel. Contrary to what we have always been told, this setup works perfectly.

The position of the Ultralite forend does not affect tune; it shoots and tunes just like any other benchrest rifle and can be tuned with the powder charge or tuner.

Later,

Gene Beggs

 

[jackie schmidt]

Gene

The only entity that can declare a item legal or illegal is the BOD in a Formal Meeting. The President and VP can say what they will in an informal setting, but that does not make it so.

You probaly should have submitted your design for official consideration by the BOD,

A while back, I asked the question, "as it pretains to the NBRSA Rules, what is the definition of a Barrel Block".

If you new stock has the barreled action attached to the forearm as you previous model, it is my contention that what you have is a barrel block, and is in violation of the rules governing the distance that a barrel block can be from the bolt face. It will be up to the BOD to define exactly what constitutes a barrel block.

I am not the only shooter who has expressed missgivings about your new stock. I just said it on this Forum.

As for your other offerrings, I have a few of my own ideas that I will be putting to the test. Nothing Earth shaking, just a few tweeks on a proven combination........jackie

 

[Gene Beggs]

The only entity that can declare an item legal or illegal is the BOD in a Formal Meeting. The President and VP can say what they will in an informal setting, but that does not make it so.

You probaly should have submitted your design for official consideration by the BOD,

A while back, I asked the question, "as it pretains to the NBRSA Rules, what is the definition of a Barrel Block".

If your new stock has the barreled action attached to the forearm as your previous model, it is my contention that what you have is a barrel block, and is in violation of the rules governing the distance that a barrel block can be from the bolt face. It will be up to the BOD to define exactly what constitutes a barrel block.

I am not the only shooter who has expressed missgivings about your new stock. I just said it on this Forum.

As for your other offerrings, I have a few of my own ideas that I will be putting to the test. Nothing Earth shaking, just a few tweeks on a proven combination........jackie

Jackie, thanks for your comments.

You stated above,

"The only entity that can declare an item legal or illegal is the BOD in a Formal Meeting. The President and VP can say what they will in an informal setting, but that does not make it so."

Jackie, I'm sure that is true, but if two such experienced and high ranking officers of NBRSA say something is legal, chances are, it is.

Jackie, you also said,

"You probably should have submitted your design for official consideration by the BOD."

Jackie, how many people do that? I have been shooting my two prototype Ultralite rifles in sanctioned competition for two years and I'm sure every member of the NBRSA and IBS boards of directors have seen them. Not one has questioned their legality.

If I understand correctly, someone would have to file a formal protest before the NBRSA or IBS board of directors would be willing to make a ruling on this matter.

Jackie, are you willing to file a formal protest in this matter? If so, please do so immediately. If not, let's move on and quit talking about it because any further discussion of the matter discourages others from trying my product. I'm not trying to put something over on the benchrest community nor am I trying to skirt the rules.

If my forend, being clamped directly to the barrel, offered some tremendous advantage, I would expect protests but that is not the case. The forend must be attached to the rifle in some way; I defy you or anyone else to come up with a simpler, better, lighter, more rigid method of attachment. When I set out to design the Ultralite, my intentions were to produce the simplest, lightest, hassle-free stock in the world. I believe I have done just that.

I have spent a great deal of time, effort and money developing and bringing to market, a fine product that represents convenience, performance and good value for today's benchrest shooters. I hope you as well as others will accept it for what it is.

Sincerely,

Gene Beggs

 

[JD Mock]

I consider both....

Gene and Jackie are my friends. I have known both since I started shooting. I wish that we could get a ruling on the legality of Gene's ingenious stock. With that said, let me add that I agree with Jackie. The "clamp" that Gene uses to attach the small fore end seems to be defined as a bedding block. If it is a bedding block, then it is too far from the bolt face to be legal. I wish that it were not that way, but that is the way I read the rules. If the rules could be changed to accept this, that would be fine with me. Good shooting...James

 

[jackie schmidt]

Gene

The first thing that needs to be addressed is the definition of a barrel block.

Perhaps while they are at it, they need to write a formal definition as to what constitutes a "stock"

By the rules as most see it, a barrel block is what attaches the barreled action to the stock. The current NBRSA and IBS rules state specific rules concerning the length of the barrel block, and how far from the bolt face it can extend.

The forearm of your stock is what constitutes the stock. If you attach the barreled action to this "stock' in the location that you have in the past, then there is no way it can meet the current rules. In my opinion, what you design incorperates is no different than if a shooter mounted a barrel block way up in the forearm of a conventional stock.

Like I said. The NBRSA and IBS need to define exactly what a barre lblock is.

Gene, if you will post a picture of your stock, then perhaps we can see. If you want me to file a official protest, then I will, so the BOD will be forced to finally decide this issue. This would be a better course of action than having someone being disqualified at a later date, especially if the disqualification involved a major match or accomplishment.

I am sure you remember how the tuner issue finally got settled. We had to finally put it before the BOD in order to settle the issues about tuners violating the barrel profile rules. Everybody knew that a tuner was not part of the barrel, but we still had to have an official ruling.

It has always been said that nobody really cares about this sort of thing untill somebody actually wins something with a particular concept. Tuners became an issue because some of us finally figured it out and started winning with tuners. That got peoples attention.

I willget in touch with Scott Hunter, our Region Director, today and see what he thinks.........jackie

 

[HovisKM]

Jackie, thanks for your comments.

You stated above,

"The only entity that can declare an item legal or illegal is the BOD in a Formal Meeting. The President and VP can say what they will in an informal setting, but that does not make it so."

Jackie, I'm sure that is true, but if two such experienced and high ranking officers of NBRSA say something is legal, chances are, it is.

Jackie, you also said,

"You probably should have submitted your design for official consideration by the BOD."

Jackie, how many people do that? I have been shooting my two prototype Ultralite rifles in sanctioned competition for two years and I'm sure every member of the NBRSA and IBS boards of directors have seen them. Not one has questioned their legality.

If I understand correctly, someone would have to file a formal protest before the NBRSA or IBS board of directors would be willing to make a ruling on this matter.

Jackie, are you willing to file a formal protest in this matter? If so, please do so immediately. If not, let's move on and quit talking about it because any further discussion of the matter discourages others from trying my product. I'm not trying to put something over on the benchrest community nor am I trying to skirt the rules.

If my forend, being clamped directly to the barrel, offered some tremendous advantage, I would expect protests but that is not the case. The forend must be attached to the rifle in some way; I defy you or anyone else to come up with a simpler, better, lighter, more rigid method of attachment. When I set out to design the Ultralite, my intentions were to produce the simplest, lightest, hassle-free stock in the world. I believe I have done just that.

I have spent a great deal of time, effort and money developing and bringing to market, a fine product that represents convenience, performance and good value for today's benchrest shooters. I hope you as well as others will accept it for what it is.

Sincerely,

Gene Beggs

Gene, I really like reading your posts and you have made the benchrest world think outside the box with many of your ideas. I do think it is important for the legality of the stock to be decided upon before selling them, just for the benefit of yourself and those who purchase it. Sure, there's a lot of stocks out there that have not had there legality questioned but none are of such a radically new design. I think the design is ingenious but ingenious, simple and cheaper doesn't make it legal.

Personally, I would like to see it found legal for use. Heck, I shoot barrel blocks on two of my LV guns that meet the current rules but they are not easier and definetly not cheaper than your design.

I wish you all the luck in your adventures.

Hovis

 

[abintx]

Gene ...

Mighty fine looking rifle. I hope it eventually passes muster by all. Pictures taken from May 12, 2008 6mmbr.com article.

 

[Lawrence W.]

Good morning Jackie,

Not to be cantankerous, but, I just went through the entire online Revised Edition No. #37 (June 2008) rule book twice and I do not see any reference to a "barrel block" rule. The only thing on stocks that I did find is the following:"The stock should have a flat or convex forearm not more than 3 inches wide and having a toe formed by an acute angle that conforms to the Varmint Rifle diagram (on page 68 of Rev. Ed. No. 36)". Gene's new design definitely conforms to this rule. Perhaps you can point out the specific rule that you think this infringes on.

Lawrence

 

[jackie schmidt]

Lawrence

This was brought up about a month ago, and Wilbur stated that the rule was suppose to be in the book, and had no explanation as to why it was not. He said that He and Don were on top of it.

He also stated that shooters should avoid building any Rifles based on the rule being admitted.

Go to search, and type in "bedding block rules". The post by Boyd Allen is what brought this up.

I talked to Scott Hunter, and my attitude is now, "to heck with it". The general attitude, (it seems), is untill some one actually wins something using the stock,, (preferrably at a National Event), or perhaps some one shoots a record, nobody will offer up a protest.

The rule book is full of all sorts of ambiguos items, like forearm widths, weights of Rifles, stock dimensions, barrel profiles, action lengths, etc, that were instituted in the past, for the most part, so that what we use in Competition would at least resemble what the public considers a "Rifle".

Gene is a good friend, and I certainly do not want to stand in the way of his enterprise. It would not bother me one bit if they just left that "bedding block" retoric out of the rule book........jackie

 

[Gene Beggs]

Jackie,

When I first concieved the idea of the Ultralite stock, I carefully reviewed the NBRSA rule book. The Varmint Rifle diagram and method of determining the buttstock toe angle is unnecessarily complicated. If one draws a diagram of what is described there, he will find that the simple answer is, "Not less than 7 degrees." Just to be on the safe side, I gave the Ultralite an 8 degree angle. Okay, so much for the buttstock.

Next, we move on to the receiver area.

At one time, aluminum sleeves for the Remington 700 type actions were used to stiffen the action and provide additional surface area for bedding and glueing. Then came stocks that incorporated a bedding block right in front of the receiver that clamped the barreled action to the stock with four bolts, leaving the action free-floated.
The rules stated that the sleeve, bedding block or any combination thereof could not exceed fourteen inches in length and could not extend more than four inches beyond the face of the receiver.

Anyone can clearly see that all of this pertained to the action/receiver/bedding-block area of the rifle; it has nothing to do with a separate forend.

The buttstock of the Ultralite bolts directly to the tang of the action with a single 1/4 X 28 socket-head cap screw. The angle of the toe is 8 degrees. Nothing protrudes beyond the receiver face except the barrel itself. Nothing to question there.

But what about the separate, three inch wide forend; it must somehow be attached to the rifle. What could be better than bolting it directly to the barrel? Does this have anything to do with action sleeves and barrel blocks at the other end of the rifle? Of course not.

Later,

Gene Beggs

 

[Harold M]

Looks to me to be a "two-piece stock" like on a hi-wall or 44-1/2, or some such. I never heard that two-piece stocks were not OK.

 

[HovisKM]

Gene,
I do believe by the way the rules are written. It's the method to attached the barrel/action to the guiding means of the rifle (ie: stock). The design constitutes a barrel block and is over 4 inches in front of the bolt face....

I'm with jackie though....I believe the rules should be changed/dropped to include your stock design.

Gene, would you try and split that kind of hair in an airplane???

There are old pilots....there are bold pilots....but there are no old bold pilots...

Kinda falls true with a lot of things in life.

Hovis