Getting back into AR accuracy
- Thread starter garandman
- Start date
Yes sir.......... Jim
Butch Lambert
Active member
Nez has smithed the President 100 winner and the winning Texas State team winner at Camp Perry service rifle in 2016. Nez also smiths the Texas State Junior team. He is a member here and lives in Texas.
It would also be very hard to beat John Holliger and White Oak Armament.
It would also be very hard to beat John Holliger and White Oak Armament.
josh shrum
New member
Garandman, when I went down the accurate AR rabbit hole, I did a lot of research into bedding the AR. People bed them at the barrel extension, and between the upper and lower (and probably other places too). So I did a before and after with bedding... sort of. From what I found, there is so much flex in the receiver when the rifle is fired that any bedding between the receivers does very little, though I would believe that this ultimately depends on the fit between the upper and lower. The barrel extension was so close fitting to the receiver that only a miniscule amount of bedding material actually remained when all was said and done. And it was a pain in the ass, never doing that again!
The link I posted earlier in this thread was to the rifle in question. Pre bedding, it shot in the low .2's. Post bedding, it shot in the low .2's.
As far as I could find with my sample of one, the things that most affected that AR's ability to shoot were the quality of the barrel (duh!) and how well the gas system functioned. I am not referencing the load or the importance of a good load, as I think that is a given on this website.
If you read my post in the link you will see that I used an adjustable gas block. I also spent a LOT of time tuning that gas system. I originally tuned it so that I had barely enough gas to cycle the action and to lock the bolt back on an empty mag. The rifle shot well, in the .4's if memory serves.
So I decided to keep dialing back the gas until I had completely closed off the gas block, to see what my groups would look like. What I found was that the rifle shot smaller and smaller as I dialed back the gas, but ultimately did not get any better once the rifle stopped being able to cycle ( I never did go all the way to a closed off gas system).
So I dialed the gas back up to where the rifle still shot as well as it could, while still being able to cycle completely. On my particular rifle that is the point where is will barely lock back on an empty mag, sometimes (not on Lancer or Pmags but the GI mags will).
The link I posted earlier in this thread was to the rifle in question. Pre bedding, it shot in the low .2's. Post bedding, it shot in the low .2's.
As far as I could find with my sample of one, the things that most affected that AR's ability to shoot were the quality of the barrel (duh!) and how well the gas system functioned. I am not referencing the load or the importance of a good load, as I think that is a given on this website.
If you read my post in the link you will see that I used an adjustable gas block. I also spent a LOT of time tuning that gas system. I originally tuned it so that I had barely enough gas to cycle the action and to lock the bolt back on an empty mag. The rifle shot well, in the .4's if memory serves.
So I decided to keep dialing back the gas until I had completely closed off the gas block, to see what my groups would look like. What I found was that the rifle shot smaller and smaller as I dialed back the gas, but ultimately did not get any better once the rifle stopped being able to cycle ( I never did go all the way to a closed off gas system).
So I dialed the gas back up to where the rifle still shot as well as it could, while still being able to cycle completely. On my particular rifle that is the point where is will barely lock back on an empty mag, sometimes (not on Lancer or Pmags but the GI mags will).
Thanx, Josh. That's helpful. Right now I'm at 0.70 - 1.00" at 100y, with no load development. I did get the adjustable gas system, and haven't played with it yet. Anything under 0.5" @ 100y will be good enuf for this steel plate gun.
Thanx for the advice re: bedding. I never had any intentions of bedding ti, and now I have even less.
Butch Lambert
Active member
You're $hitting me aren't you.
josh shrum
New member
Thanx, Josh. That's helpful. Right now I'm at 0.70 - 1.00" at 100y, with no load development. I did get the adjustable gas system, and haven't played with it yet. Anything under 0.5" @ 100y will be good enuf for this steel plate gun.
Thanx for the advice re: bedding. I never had any intentions of bedding ti, and now I have even less.
What may I ask, are you planning to load? The load I have listed in that link works well, but gets... tempermental in high temps. I found the best results using 77gr hollow points and XBR.
E
Edward Horton
Guest
Below is what I use to clean my AR15 rifles, using foam bore cleaner, forceps and Q-Tips and Gunblaster. The longer you leave the foam bore cleaner in the chamber and bore the less work you have to do. Meaning why apply the foam twice when a little more soaking time does all the work.
CLEANING WITH BREAK-FREE BORE CLEANING FOAM
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?1605-CLEANING-WITH-BREAK-FREE-BORE-CLEANING-FOAM
What is amazing is how much blue comes out of the flash suppressor and gas tube. The copper must be atomized and in a gas form to coat these areas.
Below foam bore cleaner, in a 1943 milsurp British .303 Enfield rifle with a frosted bore and letting the foam soak overnight. It will remove all the carbon and copper without scrubbing with a bore brush.
NOTE, I also use the foam bore cleaner on my pistols and revolvers.
CLEANING WITH BREAK-FREE BORE CLEANING FOAM
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?1605-CLEANING-WITH-BREAK-FREE-BORE-CLEANING-FOAM
What is amazing is how much blue comes out of the flash suppressor and gas tube. The copper must be atomized and in a gas form to coat these areas.
Below foam bore cleaner, in a 1943 milsurp British .303 Enfield rifle with a frosted bore and letting the foam soak overnight. It will remove all the carbon and copper without scrubbing with a bore brush.
NOTE, I also use the foam bore cleaner on my pistols and revolvers.
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You don't have to have time to be posting with me here on this thread. You've got a whole Internet to correct. Better get at it
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Yes I reload. Thus far I've used 69 and 77 grain SM k's and 73 grain EL d's. All with 23.5 gr varg it powder. Nothing spectacular so far 4 results… anywhere from .7 to 1".
I have some XBR… gonna try that next
Uhhh...I have to correct you on that.
It wasn't Butch who corrected you on Townsend Whelen being the original source of the quote you attributed to Larry Potterfield. That would have been me.
Don't take it out on Butch.
Justin
GeneT
Active member
I'm a big fan of the wipe-out/patch-out products, which work the same way, but it's still nice to have an appropriate tool for wiping out the scudge in the barrel extension, no matter how you loosen / dissolve it.
GsT
E
Edward Horton
Guest
I became a foam bore cleaner fan because I was collecting old milsurp rifles with pitted and frosted bores from corrosive primers.
And some of these old rifles and worn rough bores would "eat" bore brushes and give false copper readings.
And my point being with foam bore cleaners you will spend far less time with a cleaning rod inside the bore and just let the foam do all the work.
Pete Wass
Well-known member
Since 1964
I have been a firm believer that AR"s suck, since the first time I had to qualify with one of the damn things and be annoyed by that damn spring boinging in my ear. I have never felt they were or could be considered a real rifle, PERIOD and if the guvment had made them lovely Winchesters that are on display in the Museum in Cody, we all would have been a lot better off. Heck, probly one could have a lot better shot at keeping one of them clean.
Pete
I have been a firm believer that AR"s suck, since the first time I had to qualify with one of the damn things and be annoyed by that damn spring boinging in my ear. I have never felt they were or could be considered a real rifle, PERIOD and if the guvment had made them lovely Winchesters that are on display in the Museum in Cody, we all would have been a lot better off. Heck, probly one could have a lot better shot at keeping one of them clean.
Pete
you must be up north, definitely not a warm weather post!
I have been a firm believer that AR"s suck, since the first time I had to qualify with one of the damn things and be annoyed by that damn spring boinging in my ear. I have never felt they were or could be considered a real rifle, PERIOD and if the guvment had made them lovely Winchesters that are on display in the Museum in Cody, we all would have been a lot better off. Heck, probly one could have a lot better shot at keeping one of them clean.
Pete
Pete,I have been a firm believer that AR"s suck, since the first time I had to qualify with one of the damn things and be annoyed by that damn spring boinging in my ear. I have never felt they were or could be considered a real rifle, PERIOD and if the guvment had made them lovely Winchesters that are on display in the Museum in Cody, we all would have been a lot better off. Heck, probly one could have a lot better shot at keeping one of them clean.
Pete
I'm not much of a service rifle guy...but what is this lovely Winchester that you speak of?
Justin
With good components it is incredible how well an AR15 can shoot.
Quite an achievement when you consider the recoil pulse & even the best triggers are pretty average compared to a decent bolt action one.
One of my suppressed AR uppers with in 6.5 Grendel Proof research carbon barrel with factory Hornady ammo.
Chucked some together .5 under max with 8208 ;-)
Most of my uppers with various cartridges will shoot .5moa or better
Its an awesome platform when modified, around here they don't call them a Lego gun for nothing ;-)
Quite an achievement when you consider the recoil pulse & even the best triggers are pretty average compared to a decent bolt action one.
One of my suppressed AR uppers with in 6.5 Grendel Proof research carbon barrel with factory Hornady ammo.
Chucked some together .5 under max with 8208 ;-)
Most of my uppers with various cartridges will shoot .5moa or better
Its an awesome platform when modified, around here they don't call them a Lego gun for nothing ;-)
Didn't know if I dared reply to this thread, people on this forum hate AR's. partly because they are not Benchrest gun's and partly because Mike in Co tortured us with AR's for a LONG time before Wilbur pulled the plug on him, my nephew wont get within 10 feet of my AR's thinking he will get some kind of disease.....serious. I myself love tinkering with AR's, last weekend I was doing barrel break in on both a 6ppc and an AR.
I agree with GeneT on the Sinclair lug cleaning tool and Josh Shrum on the adjustable gas block , you already have a White Oak barrel, I have had very good results with them but with heavier than the SPR profile. I know it sounds crazy but the biggest accuracy improvements for me was switching from a forged upper to a billet upper. in fact my last build was in benchrest fashon (-: a left side charge and right eject. I also like the free float hand guards that you can torque your barrel to what you want and not have to worry about lining up the gas tube. Love the JP tubes and triggers
I agree with GeneT on the Sinclair lug cleaning tool and Josh Shrum on the adjustable gas block , you already have a White Oak barrel, I have had very good results with them but with heavier than the SPR profile. I know it sounds crazy but the biggest accuracy improvements for me was switching from a forged upper to a billet upper. in fact my last build was in benchrest fashon (-: a left side charge and right eject. I also like the free float hand guards that you can torque your barrel to what you want and not have to worry about lining up the gas tube. Love the JP tubes and triggers