Gathering info. for wind flag article ...Help!!

Boyd Allen

Active member
Obviously this will be a reporting article, as opposed to a "the expert speaks" sort of piece. I would like good pictures of flags, stands, tails, proper setups, etc. as well as sources for flags and related equipment. I am also interested in your methods and opinions on setup and reading, as well as what type of favor that you favor (or don't), and why. You can send anything on the subject, including full sized picture files to boydallen@sbcglobal.net
Suggestions for topics that should be covered will also be appreciated. Thanks,
Boyd
 
Boyd

I will take some pictures, write something up, and send it to you.
I will say one thing that I believe is a truthfull statement. What type of flag you use and prefer depends a lot on what the predominate conditions are in the Region you shoot andyou "method" of shooting........jackie
 
Thanks guys. Francis, no, no tuners required. I will be looking forward to your contribution. Jackie, if remember correctly you have put a lot of thought into your flags, stands and setting them. I will be pleased to get any thoughts and pictures that you care to send. Keep 'em coming guys.
 
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Boyd, not what you had in mind, I imagine, but here's a typical Highpower wind flag. We use 16 of these over 1000 yards at Ben Avery - three rows of 5 flags (200, 300, 500, 700, 900) and one behind the 1000 where it's useless and you can't see it (tradition?). :D

German Salazar

DSC01158.JPG
 
Although I am a newbie I have formed some opinions on windflags. Lightweight materials are good and frictionless rotating elements work better. My homemade flags have 2 ball bearings at both the pivot and the prop shaft. My flags will show condition changes that most flags will not. I have seen my flags show a full reverse while the other flags on the range are totally motionless with their props not turning.

At out Dec score match we had the best conditions of the year and I was amazed at the number of dropped points at 200. I have about decided that the other guys flags are misleading them. Even though it was almost dead calm a lot of the day there were still significant full reverses that could spell disaster at 200.
 
I have a lot of respect for Highpower shooters' wind doping abilities. We (short range Benchrest) could learn something there. Now about this double ballbearing highly sensitive flag, how about some pictures of the flag and the disassembled parts? Does it tend to hunt? how do you balance them (balanced, tail heavy ?)?
 
Crb

There is a school of thought that says you do not want your flags ballanced, and too sensitive. I am not one of those.
I also have my flags mounted on small 1/4 inch ball bearings, and the daisys also have hubs installed with the same bearing. They are so sensitive that they turn pretty fast just walking with them.
The ranges we shoot at in The Gulf Coast Region, mainly Tomball, Denton, and New Braunfels, are known for turbulent, switch winds that will eat you alive if your flags lag behind. You have to be able to catch those quick shifts. I more or less designed my flags for those three ranges.
Then there is Midland and Seymour, which have winds much like Mike Ratigan writes about in his book. Hard, straight accross blows that look really bad, but are actually easier to read than the swirly, switchy mess that we have at the before mentioned ranges.
Here is a good example of how a range can be very decieving, and tough. At the 2007 Crawfish at Tomball, we had several World Class Shooters come in. One, in particular, never got a handle on the mess we had to shoot in, and his parting words to me were. "I am NEVER coming back to this Sh-t Hole again.
He probably won't.........jackie
 
If we were shooting

I have a lot of respect for Highpower shooters' wind doping abilities. We (short range Benchrest) could learn something there. Now about this double ballbearing highly sensitive flag, how about some pictures of the flag and the disassembled parts? Does it tend to hunt? how do you balance them (balanced, tail heavy ?)?

At garbage can sized targets, windflags wouldn't be much of an issue, would they?

I looked at flags a long time and made two sets before I decided on GB windflags. I also decided against dasies. The GB are robust, have a radial bearing in them and are easily adjustable for balance.

I have found lately that I rely as much on what my Probes tell me as I do the flags. They must be used in unicen but the info they provide is superb.

Orland Bunker has the best set of flags I heve ever seen. I tried to duplicate them but have not been able to do so. His flags instantly show anything that happens on the field; no dasied either.
 
Boyd

Glad you took on this task...........Maybe you won't be when it's over, but for what it's worth, Jackie Schmidt is right.
If I were to do what you contemplate, I would get a sample flag, complete with the Mfg's pole or recommended pole, from as many flag makers as possible. Maybe you could just borrow one of each from shooters who have one to spare for a week or two. Get single and double vane, ball and daisy, and set them as close to each other as possible without tails interfering with the next flag, and film them when the wind changes and when things are just plain switchy. The sensitivity will become clear very fast.
Next, place them at 150 yards in a row where the prevailing conditions will hold for a bit, have someone out there to verify they are all showing the same condition and take a few still pictures............can you identify that condition on only a few flags, or all of them?
For example, I have a set that is single vane and a ball that I have trouble telling an 8 O;clock wind from a 10 O;clock wind past 100 yds. Bad Ju Ju.
Hope this helps
Bryan
 
Boyd,

Don't forget to mention the Australian made Elliot/BRT flags like Butch sells over there.

Light weight materials, ball races throughout and a 2 bladed fan along the lines of those kids pinwheels or whatever they are called. The fans are very light and respond quickly as do the whole assembly.

They come with sail tales but in lighter winds I swap to a single 3 - 4 foot length of surveyors tape.

They sound like the sort of thing crb was talking about above.

http://www.shadetreeea.com/windFlags.html

Bryce
 
Here is a pic of the last flag I made. It has a corroplast vane and a carbon fiber tubular shaft. I consider the corroplast too heavy. The rest of my flags use balsa wood. I also wanted a high aspect ratio for increased sensitivity. That is why the vane is tall and relatively narrow.

I place the pivot so that the cg is slightly rearward. The flag in the pic will hunt if the wind is really whistling. This is because of the weight of the corroplast making the carbon shaft twist. The flags with the balsa vanes do not flex. The props I use are very lightweight and respond instantly to the smallest wind change, faster or slower.

I used RC model airplane components and will list some links that will show the main parts.
propeller mount http://www.bphobbies.com/view.asp?id=V498103&pid=V639000
propeller http://www.bphobbies.com/view.asp?id=V576658&pid=iprop022
pivot http://www.maxxprod.com/pdf/acc347instructionsheet.pdf

arrowwindflag.jpg
 
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Good, keep them coming. Has anyone else noticed what I saw last time I was at a Visalia match, a lot fewer daisy wheels? What about your range/area?
 
The ranges we shoot at in The Gulf Coast Region, mainly Tomball, Denton, and New Braunfels, are known for turbulent, switch winds that will eat you alive if your flags lag behind. You have to be able to catch those quick shifts.

Riverbend has some weird switchy winds. When I first started shooting my 30BR there were certain condition changes that I felt I could just ignore and still get a 10. When I started wanting X's I came to realize that you can't ignore ANY condition change. With a lot of flags you never know that the condition has changed.

If you look in the pic of my flag you can see that the tail is almost hanging limp but the prop is slightly blurry because it is turning.
 
Here is a pic of the first flag I made before paint and a tail. Comparing this flag to the picture in my earlier post you can see how much farther the vane is from the pivot due to the lower weight of the balsa vane.

windflagprototype.jpg
 
I am

wondering something in this whole talk about flags.

There is the usual discussion about whether or not a flag is to sensitive or not sensitive enough using bearings or just sitting on pins.

It should be balanced or slightly off balance.

The composition of material for the tail be it surveyors tape or sail tails.

Props or balls.

Single vane or dual vane.

It goes on and on. Everyone will have there own opinion on what they think works and does not work.

This is what I am wondering. Jackie and CRB talk about how they feel the flags need to be very sensitive to see those subtle changes in wind direction and velocity.

Do good tails like a Snuffy tail not show those subtle changes?

I personally think they do. I would like to think the Carbon River Dual Vane Ball flags that I have are a pretty good flag. They may not be as sensitive as one with a roller bearing on a post but I would like to think that seeing a switch in the direction of the tail B4 the flag itself would be enough to tell you something. It may not give you as good a reading as the flag does but after time and practice would it not have some merit in your flag reading capabilities?

Am I completely off base here? I am a novice at this reading flags but I would like to think I learned something from my limited experience.

Calvin
 
Calvin,

I am a novice as well but these are my thoughts.

I certainly thought along the same lines until I saw a few situations that got me to thinking.

I usually use a surveyor tape tail unless it is windy enough to blow them out flat then I switch to a sail tail. At times I have been at the local range early in the morning at a time when the wind hasn't picked up yet. The flags would just sit there and do nothing for most of the time.

As the wind started to think about getting going it isn't unusual to see the whole flag assembly turn direction even though the tail didn't flutter and the prop didn't turn, and the BRT props turn easily and the surveyor tape blows out easily.

I guess the sail area of the vane compared to the flag assembly weight is enough such that the whole thing can move before there is enough wind pressure on the small area of the tail to make the tail move. The tail is light but it doesn't offer much area for the wind to push on, small area = small force for a given wind pressure.

It the flag assembly is light, well balanced, pivots freely and is positioed on a nice vertical pole the thing will flip around without much moving air mass at all.

I know that I have at times in practice ignored a switch when there was so little wind that the props weren't turning because it seemed like there couldn't be enough wind to matter !! OOPS !! If there is enough wind to pivot the whole asembly but not move the tail or prop it is still probably enough air movement to shift the bullet as well.

If you have a heavy daisy wheel and weighty sail tails will they move well enough to see those small changes when the conditions are very light or change fast enough when the conditions are very changeable ??

The sail tails work well when the wind is up but for lighter winds I like the surveyor tape. In combination with a fast acting light prop you can see little things that may be missed otherwise.

I know at a recent shoot I was having issues with a breeze that I couldn't see. I had sail tails on. I was doing my best to shoot in the same condition but I was getting a bit of horizontal that was opening up groups. I decided to watch that actual speed of the prop rather than just the angle of the vane and the sail tail angle. I noticed that the wind speed was changing, the prop was speeding up or slowing down, before it was obvious from the angle of the tail angle. I watched the vane direction, tail angle and fired when the prop speed looked right and shot my best group of the morning.

Down here the Aussie BRT flags are the most common or home made versions of something similar. I haven't been to many shoots or met all the guys here but I have not seen a single daisy wheel anywhere ! I have been told we shoot in much more fickle winds than happen at many of the USA ranges. We don't seem to get winds that will hold for long and a nice responsive flag helps pick up the changes soon enough to avoid a horror story on the target .... usually !!

Like I said, I don't know much but that is my contribution to this discussion. I hope it beats tuners and personal digs !! :D

Bryce
 
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I watch my surveyor's tape (two strands) to make sure that it agrees with where the flag is pointing. With a light wind, slow change, the tape will show it first.
 
After trial and error these are my home made flags. I sellem cheap!
 

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