Full Length die with a shoulder/neck bushing

Butch Lambert said:
If you misunderstood, that is a reamer for my dies based on the specs for my chambering die. Brass hasn't lost any match, but the ones that I lost were on me.
Is that better?
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You had a separate reamer to make the die, got it. I did misunderstand, sorry, had to go back and reread. Why didn't you use the reamer that you chambered your rifle with to make the die ?
 
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shootsteady said:
You had a separate reamer to make the die, got it. I did misunderstand, sorry. Why didn't you use the reamer that you chambered your rifle with to make the die ?
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Sir, I do use my chambering reamer for my seater, but you can't size brass with a die that is the same as your chamber, brass needs to be squeezed a little.
 
Butch Lambert said:
Sir, I do use my chambering reamer for my seater, but you can't size brass with a die that is the same as your chamber, brass needs to be squeezed a little.
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Ok... no brainer here. Minimum chamber max cartridge (case is a tad undersized to a slightly larger chamber), I knew that.....got it. Don't think about, not seen, slips my mind.

You make a seater with the reamer. That's been a concern for me, what's the advantage ? Just less bullet/cartridge runout?
 
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shootsteady said:
Ok... no brainer here. Minimum chamber max cartridge (case is a tad undersized to a slightly larger chamber), I knew that.....got it. Don't think about, not seen, slips my mind.

You make a seater with the reamer. That's been a concern for me, what's the advantage ? Just less bullet/cartridge runout?
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I don't understand the concern? You might say that I have almost no measurable runout with my method. The obvious reason that I'm not a competitive shooter at 80yrs old is I don't enjoy going to our club range and throwing bullets down range as in the past. I enjoy the mechanics and machining be it chambering my barrels or making tools and so forth. If you don't put in the practice you ain't going to win regardless of your equipment.
We have at our club and I'm sure most clubs have a group that enjoy throwing bullets down range almost daily and try to wring the last amount of accuracy out of their deer rifle. That's great, it just ain't me. At the present my preferred hunting rifle is a 308. It has all the nice stuff and a 2.5x25x March hunting scope on it. What I ask of it is 1moa with a cold barrel or a hot barrel with the same point of impact. I never hunt with a barrel that is not fouled. I do limit my hunting to 300yds. That is my personal feel good distance hunting animals.
All of this said, we have a member here that shoots BR with a 30-30. He has taken a lot of us to the woodshed.
Shootsteady, the most important thing is to do what makes you warm and fuzzy.
 
Butch Lambert said:
I don't understand the concern? You might say that I have almost no measurable runout with my method. The obvious reason that I'm not a competitive shooter at 80yrs old is I don't enjoy going to our club range and throwing bullets down range as in the past. I enjoy the mechanics and machining be it chambering my barrels or making tools and so forth. If you don't put in the practice you ain't going to win regardless of your equipment.
We have at our club and I'm sure most clubs have a group that enjoy throwing bullets down range almost daily and try to wring the last amount of accuracy out of their deer rifle. That's great, it just ain't me. At the present my preferred hunting rifle is a 308. It has all the nice stuff and a 2.5x25x March hunting scope on it. What I ask of it is 1moa with a cold barrel or a hot barrel with the same point of impact. I never hunt with a barrel that is not fouled. I do limit my hunting to 300yds. That is my personal feel good distance hunting animals.
All of this said, we have a member here that shoots BR with a 30-30. He has taken a lot of us to the woodshed.
Shootsteady, the most important thing is to do what makes you warm and fuzzy.
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I hear ya Butch ! LOL I just like to stay busy ! And if I wasn't introduced to expander mandrels verses expander ball/decappers, I would have never achieved the accuracy I get at present. Why settle for 1 inch groups?, at extended ranges it only gets worse and I never take shots at extended ranges when it's windy, and if it is, I wait for the wind to die down enough to take a shot. I don't understand the shooting aspect, but is extremely interesting on the mechanical and machining end.
 
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Al Nyhus said:
If I'm following all this correctly, my next step would be trying a Redding 77148 Type S full length bushing die and bushings that are .002, .003 and .004 smaller than what the necks measure with a bullet seated. -Al
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Next step is custom Whidden FL bushing die
 
Butch Lambert said:
I don't understand the concern? You might say that I have almost no measurable runout with my method. The obvious reason that I'm not a competitive shooter at 80yrs old is I don't enjoy going to our club range and throwing bullets down range as in the past. I enjoy the mechanics and machining be it chambering my barrels or making tools and so forth. If you don't put in the practice you ain't going to win regardless of your equipment.
We have at our club and I'm sure most clubs have a group that enjoy throwing bullets down range almost daily and try to wring the last amount of accuracy out of their deer rifle. That's great, it just ain't me. At the present my preferred hunting rifle is a 308. It has all the nice stuff and a 2.5x25x March hunting scope on it. What I ask of it is 1moa with a cold barrel or a hot barrel with the same point of impact. I never hunt with a barrel that is not fouled. I do limit my hunting to 300yds. That is my personal feel good distance hunting animals.
All of this said, we have a member here that shoots BR with a 30-30. He has taken a lot of us to the woodshed.
Shootsteady, the most important thing is to do what makes you warm and fuzzy.
Click to expand...

You might say that I have almost no measurable runout with my method.....

would you share how you achieve that ?

Bullet runout, seems to be there no matter what I do. I just got back my ye old Bananza BR seater today with a new chamber sleeve. The bullet guide was wore out, most likely using a standard stem seating VLD bullets, according to one of thier reps. I upgraded to a VLD stem. The case head doesn't move in the sleeve, and the bullet guide holds the bullet nicely, according to the rep I talked to .0005 clearance. I get .002 TIR on the ogive. My necks turned mandrel sized with 21st Century mandrels TIR .0005 or less even with the bullet seated. I use a Redding Body die and get .0005 or less TIR on the shoulder. The body die does better for bullet runout, .001 on one side and .0005 on the other, some improvement.

Looks like a custom FL die will fix that?
 
Al Nyhus said:
Don't be too hard on the die mfgs. as there's not just one 'correct' answer to your question. To start with, a description of what you're working with, your accuracy goals and how you're testing will be helpful.

-Is adjusting neck tension important for accuracy tuning? Absolutely.
-Is a good full length bushing die a nice way to achieve this? Absolutely.
-Can a full length bushing die and the bushings themselves give other issues? Absolutely.

In general, my experience has been that with fully turned case necks or necks that have been cleaned up about 75% (no-turn or factory chambers), a quality full length bushing die does a great job. If the necks aren't perfectly round, a bushing die may make things worse in terms of run out...the bushing wants to 'self center' (the bushing has radial clearance in the die) on an out of round object (the neck). Does increased run out makes the accuracy worse? Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on the whole package.

I guess that's a long way around saying that the quality of the case necks to be used is what I look at when deciding on a full length die. Even then, you just have to try stuff to see if it helps or hurts.

Even with a dead on chambering job and perfectly turned necks in a real Benchrest rig, a full length non-bushing die with a fixed diameter neck has some advantages. Think a Redding Body Die with the neck opening honed/reamed to a specific dimension and a very loose press that lets the whole system 'self center', as one example. ;)

Good basic stuff, well thought out and worked out, is never a bad thing.

Good shootin' -Al
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Alinwa said this...

If your rifle is straight, if your chamber is short and if your first load is stiff you'll get the straightest brass possible in your system. NOTHING you can do after this can "straighten"..... it can only make it worse.


"-Is a good full length bushing die a nice way to achieve this? Absolutely."
we'll see...

"a quality full length bushing die does a great job."
Considering my Redding body improved runout.

"If the necks aren't perfectly round, a bushing die may make things worse in terms of run out.. "

I'll go along with that. I can get my necks down to .0015/....3? checking with a ball mic and a indicator says .0005 or less.

"Does increased run out makes the accuracy worse? Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on the whole package."

I'm considering a sporter profile barrel/rifle might need the help. In the past I barreled a savage with an aftermarket McGowen varmint medium contour. Didn't shoot any better than the factory barrel. If I know what I know now, it would have shot alot better.

So far the little bit I have, didn't, but neck tension and necked turning made it much better. One person in particular had me convinced from accurateshooter forum. He started with body/collet die, to FL/ separate neck mandrels, he swore by them, and is OCD about runout, which they address neck tension the best, and some by bushings. Never used bushings, so I don't know. Some here say bushing Alinwa and you. Whatever works. Bottom like I'm looking at a custom die not to over work brass, and based on the responses from this forum Runout and a straight case/cartridge is the deciding factor, neck tension and turned necks to me is.
 
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IF you're interested the 3rd of a 3-part video series just broke on my youtube channel in which I explain some of these items of WHY and HOW regarding sizing and fit

This was all recorded months ago and isn't in any way a 'response' to anything but it might help explain my view regarding fit of dies to chamber.

(In any event I do have many other vids on the subject)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsqHIvbkJAQ&t=1237s

ht
al
 
BTW am I asking the right questions, now, Al ? How is it a Winchester M70 did well for extending/long range snipping in Vietnam? It was upgraded with a heavy barrel..... are pre 64 M70's exempt from not using to upgrade list of post 64 factory actions?

Perfectly fitted cases.... **from fire formed, even from a SAMMI minimum chamber, a custom die be done right ? I don't see why not. And you did say....

**straightest brass possible in your system, NOTHING you can do after this can "straighten"..... it can only make it worse, not according to your video.

The first firing of the case makes it form to the gross dimensions of your rifle's chamber. If your rifle is straight, if your chamber is short and if your first load is stiff you'll get the straightest brass possible in your system.

NOTHING you can do after this can "straighten"..... it can only make it worse.

Why wouldn't sizing to the chamber be just as good, verses chambering with tighter tolerances and to the die ?

Up to the 14:16 mark in your vid was enough for me. You did say this....

In your situation I believe you are stuck.....
It doesn't appear to me that I am, sir, according to your video. "Not wear your brass out" Custom dies prolong that....

.005 neck clearance? Is a little excessive ? Ok...... custom dies can be "exactly the numbers I want on them and he (John Whidden) hits them." You said....
 
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shootsteady said:
BTW am I asking the right questions, now, Al ? How is it a Winchester M70 did well for extending/long range snipping in Vietnam? It was upgraded with a heavy barrel..... are pre 64 M70's exempt from not using to upgrade list of post 64 factory actions?

Perfectly fitted cases.... **from fire formed, even from a SAMMI minimum chamber, a custom die be done right ? I don't see why not. And you did say....

**straightest brass possible in your system, NOTHING you can do after this can "straighten"..... it can only make it worse, not according to your video.

The first firing of the case makes it form to the gross dimensions of your rifle's chamber. If your rifle is straight, if your chamber is short and if your first load is stiff you'll get the straightest brass possible in your system.

NOTHING you can do after this can "straighten"..... it can only make it worse.

Why wouldn't sizing to the chamber be just as good, verses chambering with tighter tolerances and to the die ?

Up to the 14:16 mark in your vid was enough for me. You did say this....

In your situation I believe you are stuck.....
It doesn't appear to me that I am, sir, according to your video. "Not wear your brass out" Custom dies prolong that....

.005 neck clearance? Is a little excessive ? Ok...... custom dies can be "exactly the numbers I want on them and he (John Whidden) hits them." You said....
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"sniping" does not require high accuracy..... a perfectly normal sniping rifle will group 1 moa. Your M70 will probably do the same.

To get the ultimate accuracy from your system the dies need be closely fitted to your chamber. It's not important HOW you arrive at this but they must closely match YOUR chamber. On the subject of necks, you cannot get straight necks from a system where the neck is being sized more than .003
 
According to Hathcock, it did better than 1 inch Al, considering a heavier barrel.

I would say John could come to -.003 don't you think? My 70 does almost one hole... with one load.
 
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shootsteady said:
According to Hathcock, it did better than 1 inch Al, considering a heavier barrel.

I would say John could come to -.003 don't you think? My 70 does almost one hole... with one load.
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No, John can't do anything about your neck...... this is why I said you're stuck with it.
 
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