Front bag question -- how packed do you fill 'em?

I have to agree with Tim on this one. My Shehane Tracker stock sits firmly on the stitching in the bottom of my Edgewood bag and I've won a match or two with it like that. I know Boyd and Lester are CF guys and Tim shoots both. Is there a difference between the way a RF or CF gun rides the rear bag?
Todd Banks
 
After this thread started, I mentioned it to a friend who is my reference on all things relating to rimfire Benchrest. He told me that his stocks do not touch the stitching, and he shoots extremely well. I have always thought that rimfire rifles more sensitive to shooter input and how they are supported, primarily because of the greater barrel time compared to center fire. At the beginning of the thread there was some speculation that a vertical problem was caused by the stock not being all the way down between the ears. If putting it there solves the problem, then that is correct for that rifle, but my friend's experience suggests that it is not a universal requirement. I have tried it both ways with my PPC and did not see a difference. If your stock does not touch, and you want to see what will happen if it does, you can simply put a spacer, of the correct width and thickness, under the stock. Tape it to the stock if you like. In my case a wood pencil fit the bill. Another thing, that I mentioned earlier...I believe that there are enough differences between rifles that what is true for one,
may not be for another.

Kurly,
Are you shooting free, or in contact with the rifle? My friend, who does so well, does not shoot free recoil.
 
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Renegade said:
I have to agree with Tim on this one. My Shehane Tracker stock sits firmly on the stitching in the bottom of my Edgewood bag and I've won a match or two with it like that. I know Boyd and Lester are CF guys and Tim shoots both. Is there a difference between the way a RF or CF gun rides the rear bag?
Todd Banks
Click to expand...

Thanks for this Todd,

I have two bags with me and will try releasing the band I have the ears closed up with on one to see if I detect see a difference. I CAN and Do change my mind about things given good information. It's been a long time since I shot Rimfire rifles much and I have relatively new rifles so I may not know if I have a problem, although I have shot them off a Pappas rest indoors and didn't see any vertical from the rifles themselves unless the tuner was adjusted wrong on the 10.5 rifle.

Pete
 
I should perhaps mention that there are lots of different bags out there and ways to shoot them. I use Edgewood bags, two of them, and with the exception of my Pippin stocked sporter they are designed to have the stocks ride on the stitching and this is what I do both rf and cf with 6 different stock designs.
 
Speedy Gonzales told me to use a single stitch bag with a flat bottom stock to keep the stock from hitting the bottom. That way the edges ride in the ears. I use a rabbit ear versus a bunny too. Here is how to fill a rear bag per Speedy:

Fill the ears with regular sand, not the heavy, until pretty stiff.
Fill the bottom with regular sand and parakeet gravel half and half full, but soft enough such that you can squeeze the bag to move the rifle and then have it go back when done.
As it stretches, refill it as needed.

I did this with one variation. I used parakeet gravel in the base mixed with aquarium rock. It is pretty light, but does not pack and absorbs vibrations well. You just need to travel with it upside down in the car so that the sand doesnt go to the bottom and stay. This made a huge difference in my centerfire shooting.
 
Pete Wass said:
I agree with Lester. If the stock bottom out one looses side to side support from the ears. Not a good thing and, from my experience, the rifle will keep climbing as the bag flattens out with each shot.

To that end, I have taken steps to pull the ears of my rear bags inward . I haven't had the climbing problem since. The rifles track straighter as well.
Click to expand...

Pete
If this notion was true about losing side to side support I would think you have the wrong spacing between your ears or not enough sand in them.On my bags the only thing the ears do is to keep the gun from moving left or right so I like the ears snug on the sides of the buttstock but not lifting it.
I would think the back and forth sawing motion of the rifle during recoil from a buttstock sitting in the air would cause it too settle more than a buttstock that is already sitting on a flat firm surface?
Lynn
 
Lynn said:
Pete
If this notion was true about losing side to side support I would think you have the wrong spacing between your ears or not enough sand in them.On my bags the only thing the ears do is to keep the gun from moving left or right so I like the ears snug on the sides of the buttstock but not lifting it.
I would think the back and forth sawing motion of the rifle during recoil from a buttstock sitting in the air would cause it too settle more than a buttstock that is already sitting on a flat firm surface?
Lynn
Click to expand...

Lynn,

That hasn't been my experience. I think the angle of the BR rifle buttstock causes some of the problem and with the flat portion grounded out, there is more resistance to recoil than having the edges of the bottom of the stock gliding on the ears. Also, I have found that as I shoot the 30's that I shoot, I had to constantly add more up to the gross adjustment on my Farley when the flat of the stock was bottoming out on the bag. With the ears closed up and the edges of the stock riding on them I believe the rifles have less resistance so glide better. I haven't had to add so much up since, some times none.

Seeing what Jerry wrote about Speedy's directions; When I began shooting CF Benchrest, Speedy was the "Go To' guy for the right information on shooting. He was shooting well then and making some nice stocks and rifles. I am thinking he may have come up with stocks with flat bottoms to help keep the stocks from bottoming out but I could be wrong. My history began in 1999.

Pete
 
Boyd Allen said:
After this thread started, I mentioned it to a friend who is my reference on all things relating to rimfire Benchrest. He told me that his stocks do not touch the stitching, and he shoots extremely well. I have always thought that rimfire rifles more sensitive to shooter input and how they are supported, primarily because of the greater barrel time compared to center fire. At the beginning of the thread there was some speculation that a vertical problem was caused by the stock not being all the way down between the ears. If putting it there solves the problem, then that is correct for that rifle, but my friend's experience suggests that it is not a universal requirement. I have tried it both ways with my PPC and did not see a difference. If your stock does not touch, and you want to see what will happen if it does, you can simply put a spacer, of the correct width and thickness, under the stock. Tape it to the stock if you like. In my case a wood pencil fit the bill. Another thing, that I mentioned earlier...I believe that there are enough differences between rifles that what is true for one,
may not be for another.

Kurly,
Are you shooting free, or in contact with the rifle? My friend, who does so well, does not shoot free recoil.
Click to expand...

First, I'd like to thank everyone for their input and perspective. I was somewhat apprehensive about posting such a 'newbie' question as it seems of late, many folks get their jollies from reaming out newcomers to the sport... :confused: Even though I've been shooting now for about 3 years, I still find the sport of rimfire to be a confusing juggernaut of fact, fiction and pseudo-science. :)

I've tried shooting free and also holding the rifle. I've found that for MY rifle, it likes to be held. It causes a bit of a problem in duplicating the exact hold from shot to shot, but that makes the challenge all that more!
 
Kurly,

Rim-fire can be confusing at times. Next time you go to the range take some fill with you and experiment with it in your bags. I find that there is a happy medium in what a rifle likes. I use 2 types of fill in my bags, a fine and medium slag mixed together. I know my fill is correct in my front bag when my rifles do not cant after a 4-6 card for a score match. Every time you open and close the bolt which in rim-fire score shooting is a lot, the fill will start to shift to one side ever so slightly.

I don't shoot free recoil, just a light hold and use the front side plates for adjusting the right amount of tension for recoil. If your holding the rifle just be careful not to steer it with your hand, cheek or shoulder. When using a rear bag my rim-fire, center-fire and air rifles are not sitting on the stitching, they are riding the ears, I own 4 different rear bags, but use the SEB or Edgewood rear bags the most. You will find what works for you.

Regards,

Joe
 
[QUOTE=Pete Wass;613424] I have found that as I shoot the 30's that I shoot, I had to constantly add more up to the gross adjustment on my Farley when the flat of the stock was bottoming out on the bag. With the ears closed up and the edges of the stock riding on them I believe the rifles have less resistance so glide better. I haven't had to add so much up since, some times none.

Pete
That is an interesting observation.If you add up to your front rest it would seem to me that your buttstock is also rising in order to keep everything level?

When I began shooting CF Benchrest, Speedy was the "Go To' guy for the right information on shooting.[/QUOTE]

I had heard similar stuff several years back but my personal experience with speedy was anything but pleasant.
Lynn
 
Been out of pocket for the last week -- PSA test came back high and had to have a prostate biopsy done (not fun :( ).

Since this was the first time I've had a chance to really test out some of the suggestions that so many of you had suggested, I thought I'd let you in on my results.

First, I don't think that my vertical stringing was due to an over-filled front bag. I believe the majority of my problems were from not taking enough time to ensure that my front rest and rear bag were properly positioned and that the tracking of the rifle after being shot, returned consistently to it's original POA. While I always *thought* I took the time to set up properly and even tested returning the rifle to battery after being shot, this time I took particular care to check, double-check and triple-check after each shot, to ensure the rifle was returning back properly. What I found out was that my rifle's tracking wasn't consistent. It'd return to POA (roughly, with minor adjustment) and then the second pulling of the rifle back, then front to fire wasn't back to it's original position.

I wound up making up very minor adjustments to the rear bag (my rifle likes the butt stock to be at the very rear of the bag), adjustments to the rest's front-stop, and alignment of the front rest to the rear bag. Once it was all dialed in, shooting free-recoil was a breeze and produced the best results. Prior to this, I found that holding the rifle slightly would produce my best groups.

Anyway, thought I'd share with others who've been participating in this thread about how important proper set-up and bag riding is on two piece rests. Just thought I'd share and thanks again for everyone's input!
 
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