Front bag question -- how packed do you fill 'em?

K

Kurly

Guest
I've done a lot of reading on how best to set up your BR rifle in the front and rear rest so your POA comes back pretty much on target when you either fire or move the rifle forwards and backwards.

The problem I'm experiencing is vertical stringing which is most likely due to stock positioning in the rest. I've tried moving the front-end stop forwards and backwards as well as the position of the rifle in the rear rest. I'm still unable to get the rifle to return to the original position after it's been fired (always seems to be high or low). I read that it's not wise to have the front rest too full as it causes the gun to 'jump'. But not sure exactly how packed you do need to fill them.

The rear rest I've filled full but enough to where when I wet the leather and position the rifle in, it stays slightly above the 'V' groove of the ears.

Any suggestions on what to do?
 
Describe your rifle, rest, and bags. What sort of shooting style do you use? How much vertical? How did you work up the load?
 
I've got an Anschutz 54 in a McMillan Edge stock, front rest is a Joe Cowan rest with protektor bags. Rear rest is a Protektor ultra-fabric (I think it's model 14b?).

It seems like this rifle needs to be slightly held for it to shoot consistently but I'll occasionally try to just pinch the trigger to somewhat mixed results. Vertical movement is about 1/2"-3/4". Seems like it just won't track back to where I had it originally aimed.

I typically shoot Wolf MT, RWS Target, SKJ Standard.
 
I have the same problem, I have a Suhl, McMillan stock,Caldwell front bag and Edgewood rear. I have taken a rawhide mallet and beat the front bag down trying to get it to return to battery with no luck. The front bag is full to the max. I just touch the trigger when shooting, but just setting up and getting it to stay on targett is a problem. It must be a poor setup on my part but I don't have any local shooters to get answers from or to observe.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Semper fi
pickles
 
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The discrepancy is probably attributable to variance in the vertical position of the butt stock in the ears of the rear bag. Just for fun, try laying a pencil between the ears for a couple of shots, or something smaller in diameter if that is too large. Are you starting off by pushing the rifle's butt down between the ears and then running it back and forth to let it find a repeatable, or are you just setting the rifle on the bags?
 
I run the rifle back and forth but it just does not find a spot it will repeat. I have shot a whole card and still have to fight the thing. If thesnowis not to bad I may try to go to a shoot Friday. Perhaps someone there can spot what I am doing wrong. I hate to drive 3 hours in the snow if you knowwhat I mean.
I will try the pencil, I have pushed, bounced it and just laid it in.

Semper fi
pickles
 
Kurly
I have an Edge stock and use the Edgewood mini gator bag packed as full as possible with heavy sand.I fill the ears firm enough so the stock rests all the way on the bottom of the bag and I use carnuba on it.The stock has tape both front and rear.
My front bag is all leather and it is also packed firmly with heavy sand.Once the bag is packed firmly I soak the hell out of it with regular supermarket clothes starch.I even soak some paper towels in the starch to keep the bag wet longer.I do that for atleast two days then I wipe the slimy mess off and bolt it down into my rest.
I put the rifle on the rest and let the whole thing dry for a couple of days as the ppart under the forend takes the most time.
I then use plenty of carnuba wax on the bag and put the gun and rest in the back of my truck secured with a motorcycle tie down strap so the rifle can giggle but it won't fall off the rest or bag.I drive it around for several weeks re-applying the carnuba wax frequently.
The movement in the bed of the truck settles the sand and allows the bag to wear itself in.
I don't let people pinch or touch my bags once they are fully prepped as it will move the sand from its settled state.
Lynn
P.S. Don't try the starch on cordura bags just the leather ones.
 
Lynn

Lynn said:
Kurly
I have an Edge stock and use the Edgewood mini gator bag packed as full as possible with heavy sand.I fill the ears firm enough so the stock rests all the way on the bottom of the bag and I use carnuba on it.The stock has tape both front and rear.
My front bag is all leather and it is also packed firmly with heavy sand.Once the bag is packed firmly I soak the hell out of it with regular supermarket clothes starch.I even soak some paper towels in the starch to keep the bag wet longer.I do that for atleast two days then I wipe the slimy mess off and bolt it down into my rest.
I put the rifle on the rest and let the whole thing dry for a couple of days as the ppart under the forend takes the most time.
I then use plenty of carnuba wax on the bag and put the gun and rest in the back of my truck secured with a motorcycle tie down strap so the rifle can giggle but it won't fall off the rest or bag.I drive it around for several weeks re-applying the carnuba wax frequently.
The movement in the bed of the truck settles the sand and allows the bag to wear itself in.
I don't let people pinch or touch my bags once they are fully prepped as it will move the sand from its settled state.
Lynn
P.S. Don't try the starch on cordura bags just the leather ones.
Click to expand...

Did I get this right? You leave your rifle in the back of your truck for 2 weeks?
 
James
I have a locked tonneau cover on the bed and since october 22 2010 I have had 2 heavyguns sitting on there one piece rest systems riding the bags.They have only been out to shoot them then they go right back in.
I am not shooting this year but my guns will be shot at the nationals this year by a friend of mine.He knows how I prep the bags and wants to try my system out.I think he will finish very near the top.
Lynn
 
I had a Mc Millan stock on a 40x heavy barrel, problem that showed up ( discoverd by another shooter watching) was the forend of the stock flexing.( vertical stringing) I no longer have the stock so I can't post a picture, but it was of the foam filled variety, and I had weighted the butt down some also for better balance. We thought that the cut out for the recoil lug might be a weak point so removed lug and filled that area solid and then skim coated to reseat the barreled action. The vertical was not quite as bad but still there. Went back to a wood stock vertical gone at least as well as I am able to tell in comparison to the mm stock. this on a Farley rest up front and a Mechanical rear solid in the back(Derlin) no bag for damping in it. Does any one make custom bags?
 
I recall reading where someone did something similar in leaving their rifle in their rest while driving around but haven't done that yet. I did wet the cordura bags and set the rifle in while moving it around (back and forth) and then let it dry. I'm hoping that caused it to conform closely to the stock but it still seems like the rear rest is the one that still moves just a bit.

I had heard about synthetic stocks flexing a bit so I tried to minimize that by changing the front rest's forend stop. Don't think I've played with that component enough so will try some more this weekend. That may explain why the rifle seems to like to be held.

But I have seen the McMillan Edge rests used quite a bit so curious why more haven't steered away from that stock if it doesn't work for them. I also note that the McMillan stocks have a slight taper to them at the buttstock and many of the true benchrest rifles seem to have a flat or straight cut to them.
 
Don't know who told you to wet the bag but take out the sand and dry and/or replace it. Also if you have the Edge sitting somewhere in the ears, that is probably a problem, you want a rear with stitching wide enough to let the flat of the stock bottom between the ears.
 
I once asked Lester Bruno about whether the stock should bottom on the stitching or not. He said not, but then what does he know?
 
tim said:
Don't know who told you to wet the bag but take out the sand and dry and/or replace it. Also if you have the Edge sitting somewhere in the ears, that is probably a problem, you want a rear with stitching wide enough to let the flat of the stock bottom between the ears.
Click to expand...

The manufacturer of the ultra-bags recommended spraying the bag enough for it to be slightly wet, then allow the bag to dry with the rifle in place. It wasn't soaked, simply wet enough to allow it to conform.

I also hadn't heard that the rifle should be sitting flat inbetween the rear rest's ears. I've been told by a couple of folks that the stock's rear should rest in-between the ears -- can anyone clarify?
 
Kurly
The shortrange 100,200 yard benchrest shooters like Lester Bruno don't let there guns sit in the bottom of there bags.He is way up the list in the benchrest hall of fame so this style obviously works quite well for him.He is probaly a rear bag squeezer(not sure) and doing it this way he can better control his shots as he shoots a ton of sighters before going to his record target.
The rake on the rear butt of the mcmillan edge is there too meet the rules requirement and it allows the rifle to recoil down and away from the shooter.The flat straight buttstocks are very common on the 600/1000 yard guns because the rules allow for it and muzzlebrakes can be used to tame the recoil.This allows for the rifle to return to battery very quickly while looking through the scope without having to lift your head.
On the stocks with rake to the buttstock such as the edge you are looking above your impact point after firing and as you push the gun forward your sights drop down onto your point of aim.
Should your buttstock make contact with the bag is up to the individual shooter.I have cut the stitching off my edgewood bags removed the ears split them in half with heavy scissors then widened them to exactly how I wanted them and had them re-sewed onto a piece of heavy leather.I then used shoe goop to re-attach them to the top of the main bag.
This allows the ears to act as a guiding means for the stock without any affect on the vertical.I am not a bag squeezer however as I use my left handle to adjust for any needed vertical movement with either a speed screw or joystick not the rear bag.
Lynn
 
I guess that I should have explained myself better. My point was that there is wide variation in shooting style among successful shooters. I have seen shooters do well with and without their butt stocks bottomed between the ears of their rear bags. Some squeeze bags. Others do not. Some use front stops. Others do not. Some hold their rifles. Others....well you get the idea. My earlier post was aimed at allowing your rifle to have an easily reversed way to touch bottom, to see if it makes any difference.
 
Well, here's what you do. First you call Macmillan or Robertson composites and ask why them fancy new stocks are flat on the bottom of the butstock. Then you call Edgewood bags, talk to Jack, ask him why they make bags with variable stitching between the ears, or you could continue to ponder why you keep getting that verticle.
 
Boyd Allen said:
I once asked Lester Bruno about whether the stock should bottom on the stitching or not. He said not, but then what does he know?
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I agree with Lester. If the stock bottom out one looses side to side support from the ears. Not a good thing and, from my experience, the rifle will keep climbing as the bag flattens out with each shot. With regard to stocks being flat on the bottom; they were origionally made that way YEARS ago so that they WOULDN'T bottom out. Perhaps things have changed over the past 15 or 20 years.

To that end, I have taken steps to pull the ears of my rear bags inward . I haven't had the climbing problem since. The rifles track straighter as well.

I question rather or not Rimfire Rifles are violent enough to disturb bags much. I am using the same rest and bags I use with my 30 cal rifles and I don't see them tossed around the way larger caliber rifles do if the bags aren't aligned properly.
 
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