Friend Jackie Schmidt

Friend Lynn

Friend Lynn:

I'd like to add something.......all the folks, who have installed a bunch, a big bunch, of muzzle brakes, and, claim that threading doesn't hurt accuracy?

Would any of you wonderful folks, who claim to have installed hundreds of muzzle brakes, and, claim that threading the muzzle don't hurt accuracy, like to show proof of your testing, on this fine forum?

Lynn: Making accuracy is an art, not a science. Every barrel is different. every action is different....every stock is different.....

Lynn, making accuracy is a "feel"....a 6th sense, not mechanical measurements.....not something that can be measured by engineering standards...

Finally Lynn: Bill Calfee ain't never giving up nothing, to obtain accuracy, unless there is no other recourse....

Threading the muzzle distorts the bore......period!

We do not have to thread our muzzles to attach a muzzle device, (tuner) or a muzzle brake.....

Then Lynn, we can have the whole pie..

Lastly: Lynn, I have spoken to you one time...I do not know you, nor you me, otherwise.....but, you have become my voice on this centerfire forum....
You may regret that fact....

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Hello Mr.Calfee, I enjoy reading your posts and respect your opinions. Its been fun watching the progress made with tuners even if there has been alot of kicking and screaming along the way.

Im not experienced enough to know who is right and who is wrong but I do appreciate the fact that you are willing to speak out even though some people have been less than friendly. The sport would get boring very quickly if everyone did everything the exact same way with the exact same equipment all the time.

It doesnt matter to me whos Idea it is, if it works thats great and I like anyone who is willing to try. Be it a tuner, frozen scope, coaxial rest, ect.

Thanks to EVERYONE that has new ideas or trys new things and shares the results with people like me that dont have the tools to try them on my own.
 
Jim Borden said:
Jackie

Machining barrels at the muzzle does NOT necessarily distort the bore and those that emphatically speak that it does do not know what they do not know.

Jim Borden
Click to expand...

Do so know. Threading a barrel muzzle will show an increase of bore diameter
under the threaded area of aprox .0001". This can be verified with an air gage, as I did while employeed at Shilen Rifles.

Paul Dorsey
Dorsey Rifles
 
Just my guess,

but threading on a brake to a barrel that is .825 in diameter with a .500 inch thread is not the same thing as putting on a .812 fine pitch thread on it and lightly tightening either a normal or extended tuner on it. The amount of metal removed will dictate the amount of stress relief in the metal, if there is any stress to relieve. I have slugged a few barrels of late where I put on a tuner with only .03 of diameter removed for the thread and could not tell the difference. If I put on a much smaller thread that may change.

As an engineer I have to be shown or mathmatically proven anything before I really believe it. Taking off just enough material for the threads (which by the way on the above barrel is only about 5.0% of the area of the barrel) doesnt show enough difference in the pressure vessel equations to show any reasonable change in inner diameter for reasonable stress conditions in the barrel. IF there is no stress, which most barrel makers strive to have, there is no change by the way. In some tests I have made, there seems to be very little stress left in most barrels, but not zero.

It seems to me any clamping, over tightening of opposing weights, overtightening a overhung tube etc has much more effect then the removal of the metal. In general, if there is stress the barrel will open up. Putting on a nut of any kind and tightening it will tend to close it. Maybe there is an opposing effect with the threaded tuners and it is a wash in the end. Overall, I really doubt that in a small metal removal thread, it makes any difference at all.
 
For Petes sakes boys, Man Up. Mr. Calfee if you have a better way to install a tuner, tell us all. If you don't like to thread your barrel because you loose a 2% to gain 4% then the loss is yours. You lost 2% in accuracy unlike the fellas that are using the tuners who just gained 2%.

There is a wealth of knowlege to be gained on this forum without listing to the I know this and I'm not telling attitude. I don't know too many people on this forum and probably can't shoot better than most who post on here. I like to learn everyhting there is to learn and apply what sounds logical, kinda like someonelse mentioned.

Heck if I have a load that is working better than the next guys just ask and I'll fill you in, or anything else I have done for that matter. After all thats how I learned.

I don't even shoot short range bench rest but there sure is a lot here that applies to 1000 yard Benchrest and the groundhog shoots that I like to attend. So if you have a secrete and don't want to tell anyone then don't even bring it up. If your looking for suggestions to mount a tuner without threading the barrel then put it in the form of a question instead of a controversial statement. :eek:

This post isn't intended as an attack on anyone so please don't view it that way.

If I have read into this something I shouldn't have then by all means please accept my appologies.

JB Weld or Duct Tape might work;) Mike
 
Cerro metal is used to hold die bushings in place and they get pounded thousands of times. That is similar to the material sold by Brownells for chamber casts. It expands a very small amount and really "gets a grip on things". It would work for attaching tuners with minimum added stresses. I also think that some of the higher strength products from Loktite would work.
I'd still opt for threaded muzzle or clamped on tuner body.
 
What is right

Kathy said:
Friend Lynn:

If threading the muzzle distorts the bore and hurts accuracy, how come one can install a muzzle brake and not hurt accuracy, or, even sometimes increase accuracy?

My friend, I just "gots" to know the "why's" about stuff.....when I installed my first muzzle brake, I took the gun to the range, before installing the brake, tested it by shooting groups, saved the test target then went to the shop and threaded the muzzle and fit the brake.

I then returned to the range and re-tested, without the brake installed. The gun shot noticeably worse......I then installed the brake and the gun shot as good, or maybe slightly better, than it had originally.....

See Lynn, I felt threading the muzzle surly has some affect on accuracy...the only way I could know for sure was to take the time to test, as I just described above...

I have only fit a hand full of muzzle brakes....not my line of work...but, I've taken the time to run the above test every time I fit one....usually with the same results...

The last brake I fit was on a 300 RUM....for a buddy I used to work with...he came to the shop, we went to the range, set up a target and I sat down at the bench to shoot 3, 5-shot groups.....I only fired one round....I let Mike, my buddy, shoot the rest....that was the worst kicking gun I think I ever fired.... no wonder he wanted a muzzle brake...

We went to the shop, machined the barrel for the brake, then ruturned and re-tested...first without the brake installed....Mike did the shooting...after his first group he looked at me.....shook his head....the gun wouldn't shoot in a bucket.....

I screwed on the brake.....Mike shot again....the gun went back to shooting about like it had before the brake was installed....to Mike's relief...oh, I shot the thing with the brake installed....was like shooting a .243...

Lynn.....a muzzle brake is just a non-adjustable muzzle device, (tuner).....a tuner is so valuable in increasing accuracy, that the benefit outweighs the damage caused by threading the muzzle.....this is the dirty little secret about muzzle brakes....

I want the whole pie Lynn.......I ain't about to give up half of the possible gain from a muzzle device, (tuner) by threading my muzzles.....especially when there is an alternative......

If the world don't end, there will be an alternative shortly...

Your friend, Bill Calfee
Click to expand...


JerrySharrett said:
If you will search back you will find I threaded several barrels, none of which were negatively effected by threading. The barrels were tested by shooting and lead slugging before and after. In the 2005 season in IBS the only way we had to even tune was with a threaded barrel since we had a maximum diameter limit for the tuner itself of the max diameter of the HV barrel profile..
Click to expand...

OK. Which is right.
Mr Sherrett. You do not detail what if any diff this made in accuracy if any.
Mr. Calfee. Has proven to himself any way that it does.

Has any one else run these tests to be able to see any difference?
 
It is my belief that a lot of this is theoretical only...

For instance: It is a fact if the diameter of a barrel is turned down considerably from when the bore was finished, internal dimensions change.... and if this is done forward of the throat of the rifle, accuracy will suffer. Now this is where I think the theory comes in... if you only turn a very small amount off the large diameter at the muzzle - does that harm the accuracy? At what point can that be determined? I do not believe that if you take a good shooting barrel and turn a few thousands of an inch off it, that anyone is capable of measuring any accuracy loss, but in theory it may occur...?

Bill feels that any material removed will reduce accuracy... at least that is what I get from his posted puzzles... others have threaded and are happy with the results... but according to Bill, they are wrong... at least that is what I get from Bill's posts. some day we will all see the light... I got that from Bill's postings too... I wish he would turn the switch on.
 
Flutting vs Threading

I believe this same theory was applied to flutting a barrel. I agree, theory doesn't show up on the score card.
 
Friend Frank Svenson:

Friend frank:

Threading the muzzle of a rifle barrel distorts the bore.

I took time out of my life to test, before and after threading, to be absolutely sure what affect threading the muzzle has on accuracy....

If all the good folks who install muzzle brakes, or muzzle devices, (tuners), by threading the muzzle, will take the time, out of their lifes, to run the test I described, they will see, just like I did, that : threading the muzzle distorts the bore, which affects accuracy......

My dear friends on this fine forum: I'm sorry if this information upsets some of you.....I really am..

My dear friends: I want the whole pie......I am not going to give anything up by threading the muzzle of a killer rifle barrel......especially when it is absolutely unnecessary.....

Having said the above....my gosh my friends, I'm just a dumb old Kentucky Hillbilly....if you want to thread you muzzles, go for it.

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Kathy said:
Friend frank:

Threading the muzzle of a rifle barrel distorts the bore.

I took time out of my life to test, before and after threading, to be absolutely sure what affect threading the muzzle has on accuracy....

If all the good folks who install muzzle brakes, or muzzle devices, (tuners), by threading the muzzle, will take the time, out of their lifes, to run the test I described, they will see, just like I did, that : threading the muzzle distorts the bore, which affects accuracy......

My dear friends on this fine forum: I'm sorry if this information upsets some of you.....I really am..

My dear friends: I want the whole pie......I am not going to give anything up by threading the muzzle of a killer rifle barrel......especially when it is absolutely unnecessary.....

Having said the above....my gosh my friends, I'm just a dumb old Kentucky Hillbilly....if you want to thread you muzzles, go for it.

Your friend, Bill Calfee
Click to expand...

run the test I described....


I missed where you described how you actually conducted the test. Was it online anywhere?​


.
 
Dennis Sorensen said:
run the test I described....


I missed where you described how you actually conducted the test. Was it online anywhere?​


.
Click to expand...

Dennis, you did miss it. He took a worn out rimfire barrel and shot it before he threaded it...wouldn't shoot. Then he threaded it...still wouldn't shoot.
 
I am not sure I'd personally consider these targets proof of anything ! Neither seem to be much good and with the fliers and horizontal spread present it wouldn't seem hard to have a 20% difference based on random chance of the group size alone !

Bryce


95mzh3.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A little food for thought,I am sure that a lot of you have seen the post about the small group that was shot a a little less than a mile by Russo,Bruce Baer built the rifle & threaded & installed the brake,Any one who claims that the threaded muzzle is harmfull towards accuracy can build a rifle & duplicate this feat without a threaded muzzle,Then they can say that they have the data to back up their claim,I will bet that they will spend a lot of money & time ,& not even come close,Call Bruce & tell him that what he is doing is not good for accuracy,I know what he is going to tell you,The same thing that i would, BILL
 
I know this will show how dumb I am on the subject, but when a rifle barrel is made doesnt it start out a straight taper then get turned down to the desired contour from there? If thats not the case let me know (I've never made a barrel). If it is case, wouldnt removing all the material required to taper the barrel distort the bore even more than threading it?
 
Thank my lucky stars that I just "found" another bottle of "single barrel". This one has a cork stopper tho,last quart has a screw-on lid:(
 
Friend Dennis Sorensen

Friend Dennis:

You asked about the test I ran...................yes, you did miss it...it is in post #24 of this thread......

Dennis, when one threads the muzzle of a rifle barrel, the bore, at the muzzle, becomes distorted.

Friend nonliberal: I like your name... you asked a good quesation: you asked if a barrel is made in a striaght blank, then turned down, isn't the bore distorted then? Yes it is my friend......this is why a match quality rifle barrel, that has been rifled in a uniform blank, then profiled to a smaller diameter, MUST BE LAPPED AS THE LAST OPERATION.....the lapping, if done properly, can remove the distortion caused by reducing the diameter of the blank...

My dear friends: I didn't make the laws of physics.....someone else did all that stuff.......my job, if I want to improve accuracy, is to adapt to the laws of physics.....which I do......

Sometimes folks find it uncomfortable to adapt to the laws of Nature (physics)....I don't. If I want to produce killer rifles, I got to do as Nature dictates...

Nature, or the laws of physics, for what ever reason, dictates this: When the outside of a finished rifle barrel is cut, for any reason, the bore becomes distorted.....

I'm so sorry if that fact of Nature (physics) offends anyone....I didn't make the laws....

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Kathy said:
Friend Dennis:

You asked about the test I ran...................yes, you did miss it...it is in post #24 of this thread......

Dennis, when one threads the muzzle of a rifle barrel, the bore, at the muzzle, becomes distorted.




Your friend, Bill Calfee
Click to expand...

Thanks Bill I found it... I have not experienced the tremendous accuracy problem you encountered when threading for muzzle brakes.


Dennis
 
paul75167 said:
Do so know. Threading a barrel muzzle will show an increase of bore diameter
under the threaded area of aprox .0001". This can be verified with an air gage, as I did while employeed at Shilen Rifles.

Paul Dorsey
Dorsey Rifles
Click to expand...

thank you paul. this is what I asked about a long time ago. an air gauge will actually tell the story.
 
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