first class rifle

I

ifldned

Guest
I would like to get your opinion as to what a first class rifle will average group, 5 shot at fifty yards, before you would keep it or sell it off.
I'm assuming I'm getting the opinions of expert shooters.
ifldned
 
Oh wow! You are gonna get answers to this one.

I'll give you my take, but "expert" is not what I'd call myself. You get what you pay for.

Most of us shoot match for score, not group. If a rifle won't shoot 250's in IR or RBA with say 15-20 X's per card it is not competitive. In ARA it better be able to shoot 2300 or better. Same thing with the PSL target although a 2300 likely won't win the target, but a 2300 Ag is pretty good.

If you are stuck on groups, then it should be one roundish hole with all five touching each other. Edge to edge I guess that would be about a 0.250 inch hole. If it shoots cloverleafs then it is likely not gonna be a winner without more tuning, ignition work, different ammo, better shooter etc etc. If I had a rifle that did that every time no way I'd sell it at any price, but I would lose sleep worrying about finding the next killer lot of ammo that would shoot that good again. bob
 
Since this is benchrest...get it...not huntin'...if it don't do .250 or better (at 50 YARDS) it's junk. If it'll do any better than that with good ammo and a better barrel and get me to the .125, then we'll talk about first class.......cause that aint it. You all can bicker now! LOL

John M. Carper
 
first class rifles

Concho Bill,
I'm 57 years old now. I've killed jackrabbits with a slingshot and a marble at 50 yards when I was a kid. I'm talking about rifles that at worst can tack a fly a 50 yards and at least tack a gnat. That's including the wind factor!.......
ifldned
 
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Ifldned,

Well now that we got the Jackrabbit rifle out of the way and we are talking about benchrest target rifles we are on the same page. If the 10 ring on a 50/50 target is 1/4" and the rifle is perfectly sighted in, a group out of 25 round of .474 could score a 250. I think that we can agree that a 25 round group of .474 is much rarer than a five shot group of say .33.

If that first class rifle could shoot that good, there is a possibility that it could shoot even better with the right ammo.

The wind, as well as the shooter, is so much of a factor that a superior shooter could take my good shooting rifle and shoot a better score that I can.

A person should be careful about selling a rifle too soon. I believe that you should test the rifle in a building or tunnel or on a very still morning before you give up on it.

Concho Bill
 
this sport sounds like like whatalmost the sport of deer hunting did to me,if i didnt kill a big buck i wasnt happy. Lets not for get about the simple pleasers of shooting and competeting.GREG
 
To each his own. I enjoy the pursuit of perfection, the agony of getting my backside handed to me when my rifle and/or I don't perform in competition and the joy when it all comes together. Rim fire bench rest is a game that not all are going to enjoy. When I have the opportunity to shoot with a bunch of guys who are like minded I'm in high cotton. I won't knock your pursuit of happiness if you can find it in your heart to allow us to enjoy rim fire bench rest. bob
 
gregmaz said:
this sport sounds like like whatalmost the sport of deer hunting did to me,if i didnt kill a big buck i wasnt happy. Lets not for get about the simple pleasers of shooting and competeting.GREG
Click to expand...

Happiness is an attitude. It is not a dead trophy animal or a perfect target.

Some of my best days were spent hunting and not firing a shot. Some of my best matches were ones that I did not win. It is the time I spend with good friends that I remember with fondness.

Concho Bill
 
Bob Finger, looks like nobody has the guts to respond to this question. It reveals to much about ourselves. Concho Bill will tell it to you straight what he thinks, I admire him for that. And you are straight forward in your evaluation of what a good rifle is. I have match rifles but at heart I'm a pistol shooter. For me, If I didn't think I could shoot 5 shots in the zeroes with a 22lr at 50 yards, I'd think I had a inadequate rifle. I want me to be the weakest link in the chain. That way I know I can change things that are not beyond my control. Our firearms are extentions of ourselves but we are also them. Without having to say it bluntly," what we shoot is what we are, and what we are is what we shoot". The firearms we shoot for thousands of hours are extentions of ourselves and we are what we shoot, and what we shoot, is us. So this begs the question, if I was a gun, what would I be?
ifldned
 
Your original question, "average groups" covers a lot of ground and it's a question impossible to answer correctly. Simply because a rifle capable of shooting in the .0's can change to a .7-1.00" rifle if you miss a wind change or condition real fast.
Some of the best rifles out there will shoot groups in the .0's and low .1's with top flite ammo matched to that rifle and properly tuned of course.
Then you ask, how bad would it have to be before you'd sell it off? I wouldn't sell anybody a bad shooting rifle without telling them it needed a barrel or letting them shoot it. I don't think I have anyfriends who would either, at least I hope not:).
 
ifldned said:
I would like to get your opinion as to what a first class rifle will average group, 5 shot at fifty yards, before you would keep it or sell it off.

I'm assuming I'm getting the opinions of expert shooters.
ifldned
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You left a lot of us out of the equation with that qualification. Since ifldned is busting balls I'll give you my opinion. Your bench rifle should average .25" at fifty yards. Most or many of your groups should be in the one's or lower. You will have some in the 3/8's range assuming you can read the wind correctly. As Kent said, miss a condition and watch the group average get bigger.

Ken Henderson
 
Kent,
I realize our expectations change with the conditions. With a first class rifle one should think of groups in the zeroes, or under the teens. For score shooters, I think with a good rifle and ammo, you should think a 250 score unless the winds are switching. Then it's not the rifle but the shooter and that's the way it should be. As for bad rifles, I'd be wiling to pay a pretty hefty sum for what Bill Calfee considers a throw away rifle. I've always bought firearms from first class shooters, way better than myself and what they consider unacceptable is gold to me and has improved my shooting.
ifldned
 
ifldned,
Certainly an "almost good" BR rifle is way more accurate than a standard rifle but to a guy shooting BR and trying to, win it's pretty useless.
I do see your point. I have taken off barrels that would shoot 250's with 12-15x's because they just wouldn't cut it.
You can waste a lot of $$ and time trying to make one of those almost rifles a winner.
However this is a BR forum and I try and address the questions as such, so I assume a fellow is asking a question pertaining to rimfire BR.
.5" accuracy at 50 yards is certainly good enough for any rimfire hunting or plinking situation and there's plenty of rifles out there capable of that.
But once you sit a fellow behind a top flite BR rifle that's hitting on all cylinders and watch his face light up while he's shooting the centers out of the bulls, he's not going to be satisified with and almost accurate rifle any more:)
If you'll look at the match results from the recent IR5050 Indoor Nationals it'll give you an idea of what the rifles are capable of indoors. Quite amazing!
 
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ifldned said:
Kent,
I realize our expectations change with the conditions. With a first class rifle one should think of groups in the zeroes, or under the teens. For score shooters, I think with a good rifle and ammo, you should think a 250 score unless the winds are switching. Then it's not the rifle but the shooter and that's the way it should be. As for bad rifles, I'd be wiling to pay a pretty hefty sum for what Bill Calfee considers a throw away rifle. I've always bought firearms from first class shooters, way better than myself and what they consider unacceptable is gold to me and has improved my shooting.
ifldned
Click to expand...

Yeah Kenny, nothing but 250's unless it's switching. Remember that one day back in 1998 when it wasn't swithing?:D
 
I was just wondering ........
When I was looking to have a centerfire bullseyepistol built, I knew I wanted one that would shoot less then 1 1/2" groups at 50 yds. That, at least at the time ( around 96 ) was the tightest group pistolsmiths could get out of a 1911 45 acp.
So when I had a bullseyepistol built by Ed Masaki. He said it would shoot 1 1/2" groups at 50 yds. But this was only possible when set up and shot out of a ransom rest and the conditions had to be just right. ( it actually shot smaller then that, its a pistol thing! )
Maybe this is what ifldned is asking.
Under the right conditions and with out human error how should a competitive 22 BR rifle shoot. Im kind of wondering this myself as I am just getting into BR.

Thanks
foosurdaddy
 
Groups size

The last time eley had a shipment I tested 9 different lot numbers in 4 different guns and in my #1 gun all 9 lots averaged together .193 the ammo I bought agged .150 in all 4 guns averaged together. That was indoors about 30 degrees. That turbo shoots very good indoors and outdoors I have not shot one better.
 
foursuredaddy, go to http://www.clach-sbrc.org.uk/batchtest/ to see eley test of ammo off of mechanically rest. I meant with live shooter in reasonable conditions.

RGORHAM, .15 average is impressive, did you get any 5 shot groups in the zeroes?
ifldned
 
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I tested 9 different lot numbers in 4 different guns and in my #1 gun all 9 lots averaged together .193 the ammo I bought agged .150 in all 4 guns averaged together. That was indoors about 30 degrees.

How many shots in group and what was range?
 
Test

The range was 50 yrd and they where 5 shot groups and I think the smallest was .090 I have shot smaller but the norm is in the ones the most important thing is they are round groups and no fliers
 
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