Finicky vs. Cartridges that Hold Tune - Myth?

T

Tony C

Guest
I've read the old 6 x 47 was finicky as heck. I have also read and heard that 30 calibers such as the 30BR and Michael Turner's 30-30 stay in tune better than 6mm or 22 calibers. Do you think this is true? If so, why?

If true, and we can determine why, then maybe it could be carried over into 6mm and 22 cartridges - assuming the resulting accuracy and velocity would be enough as to work in BR cartridges.

I'm wondering if this is related to velocity, bore capacity, powder characteristics...???

Some powders may be better than others in this respect, but the 30BR shoots well with several different powders.


Tony Carpenter
 
6x47-6x222mag.

l think if 10 of the best BR shooters today would build and
shoot a 6x222mag.the way it is done today they would still
win most of the matchs.....just one old farts thoughts....
Jon D.
 
In the late 1970s the 6x47 was replaced by the 6PPC in about 18 months. For good reason-I was witness to the sea change. I think I remember Mike Walker even admitting that the 6x47 was cantankerous.

Maybe the same guys would win today, but they would not be happy.
 
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The Question

When a Shooter says that uses one of the cartridges that seems to never need tuning, ask him about his last yardage, Grand Agg, or Two Gun Win.

The reason many say a 6PPC is finiky is because the darned thing shoots so well when right, we get all upset when it isn't quite right. That, and many shooters simply do not know how to get a Rifle tuned, and keep it there. I can tell you one thing, thereis more to it than just controling barrel harmonics.

I kinda agree with Jon D, if you had the quality components that we enjoy today in 6x222 mag, we could probably make it shoot as well as a 6PPC. In fact, any case that has about that same bore to powder column ratio will shoot if the components are up to the task. The Wall-Dog and Tall Dog are good examples of this.

I have shot groups with my 30PPC that rival any 6PPC, or anything else for that matter.

I have said more than a few times that if you took the Lapua 220 Russian case from us, most of us would have to start back at square one. It is that good. It allows us to shoot in a load window, (a very competitive one), that was unheard of in days of old.........jackie
 
Jackie

It's my understanding Michael did very well with his 30-30 in competition. I did not look up the match results.

I would like to know if any of you shooters who shoot extreme powders like Benchmark or H4198 have really seen an improvement. Is it really easier to stay in the accuracy node window than other powders like N133 or 8208, when the temperature and humidy or DA change? I still shoot a lot of powders that are not Hodgdon Extreme. While this doesn't seem to make much difference in the 30-30, it does seem much harder to keep the smaller 22's and 6's in tune. I have seen my 22 capable of shooting zero's, and then suddenly just quit shooting. Since I'm not any good at tuning, this can be very frustrating.

Michael
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And I've been whipped pretty bad in registered matches by shooters who were scoring targets and performing an occasional barrel cleaning - who had preloaded ammo, which at any given time are capable of scoring 24X to 25X.



Tony
 
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Jackie! Obviously you never had a 6x47. :D The incredibly rapid paradigm shift from the 6x467 to 6PPC was because it simply shot better and was more consistent.
 
A Nascar analogy.

The Sprint Cup cars are designed to run fast. Are they finicky? Perhaps or maybe the competition is so tough that the slightest handling problem puts one at the back of the field. The 6 PPC is not really finicky but it has to compete at a level that was unheard of just a few years ago.

Just recently, Gary Ocock shot a .1124 MOA agg at 200 yards and Joe Krupa shot a 2-gun Grand Agg in the teens. These phenominal aggs were shot with a cartridge that many say is very finicky. Also, they were shot without the benefit of a barrel tuner. How long will it be before we see a "zero" agg shot with the finicky 6PPC? Good shooting...James Mock
 
JD

I did not imply the 6PPC was not precise or accurate.

"If your groups get smaller and smaller until the third group is a dot that seems smaller than the conditions allow, one should go down by 1/2 a number on his powder measure. WHAT! Do you mean that one should change a load that has just shot a screamer group? Yes, it has been my experience that the load is about to blow up." (Presicion Shooting August 2008)

Joe is a much better shooter than I am, so I'll have to take his word on it. This does not sound like a gun handling issue. It sounds like a tune issue.

Maybe there is a better term than finicky...

Tony
 
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"If your groups get smaller and smaller until the third group is a dot that seems smaller than the conditions allow, one should go down by 1/2 a number on his powder measure. WHAT! Do you mean that one should change a load that has just shot a screamer group? Yes, it has been my experience that the load is about to blow up." (Presicion Shooting August 2008)
Click to expand...

Tony Boyer has told me the same thing more than once.
 
I will have to agree with Joe and Tony, as I have seen the same in my own experience. If I would have had and followed this information a couple years back, there would be a new HV100 world record. lol. But if "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts we would all have a merry christmas.

Matthew S Keller
 
With a few exceptions, I doubt that the 6X47 would
remain in tune today for long. There was no second window.
The 222 mag case or even the Fed 6X47 would not stand
pressures used today. Primer pockets were leaking
in the first window.
The 30 Br is a user friendly cartridge for tune. Just put in
4198 and shoot it.When you get enough in , it shoots.
The 6 PPC shoots well enough that we are often fooled about
how its shooting. Three shots in a hole doesn't always translate
into a good agg.
 
The 30 Br is a user friendly cartridge for tune.
Click to expand...

Thanks Bob.

Why? What makes it so?

Does it have anything to do with its effiency and capacity/bore ratio?


Tony
 
Tony C said:
JD



or accurate."If your groups get smaller and smaller until the third group is a dot that seems smaller than the conditions allow, one should go down by 1/2 a number on his powder measure. WHAT! Do you mean that one should change a load that has just shot a screamer group? Yes, it has been my experience that the load is about to blow up." (Presicion Shooting August 2008)


Tony
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Happened to me at Tomball, I shot a .223 @ 200 yds and my next group was a .750.

Afterwards I talked to Gene Bukys about it, he said and I qoute" When you shoot a stinger in hot weather immediately drop your powder charge as the load is changing for the worst"

Paul Dorsey
 
Tony C said:
Thanks Bob.

Why? What makes it so?

Does it have anything to do with its effiency and capacity/bore ratio?


Tony
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Tony, FWIW, there are some pretty good cartridges at the top of this list.---Mike Ezell
 

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Mike

Good to hear from you. Thanks for the list.

Do you know the 30 Major's ratio off the top of your head?

It's interesting that the old 6x47 and 6PPC have the same index value - but different case design. Palmisano and Pindell were certainly on to something.


Tony
 
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Tony

Since I have been playing with the 22BRT, I have had to play with the tune just like the guys loading around me. Those who say that 30's are just as hard to keep in tune as the 22's and 6's are just wrong. The guys that shoot 30BR's have seen first hand how much easier it is to keep them in tune. On the other hand, those 30 shooters who say a 30 can't go out of tune are wrong. You just have a wider window. One easy way to see why my 30-30 stays in tune better is this. Every grain of powder in a 6PPC makes a velocity change of about 120fps, while in the 30-30 it only makes about 50 fps. This can lead to one bullet out of the group if you happen to throw a bad charge by .2 grains, and you are not right in the middle of your velocity node window. This would also mean that I have less velocity change with temperature change. The fact is, I shot the same load in New Braunfalls for three years (40gr Isreali 2015 with a 125gr Berger), and took home more than my fair share (36 in all) of trophies for top 3 finishers at both yardages for group and score.

Something that most don't know is that Dave Williams actually won the LV100 at Midland (Buffalo) with his 30BRX. The results will show he came in second, but his target was measured wrong. His agg. was a .179". He was showing me his targets (he had 4 mid .1" groups) when I noticed a group that was measured as a low .3". I told him "that's not a 3, that's a 2". He had it remeasured as a mid .2" group, but it was to late to have it changed. I told him as a 30 shooter, he should measure every group for himself. I still find my groups to be measured wrong. Some I catch, and some still go on the record measured wrong. Even at the TX state my .123" group was remeasured as a mid zero too late to be changed, so I took second. This is just a warning to all 30 cal. shooters, measure all of your targets before it's to late to make a change. I believe you have 30 minutes after the agg. is posted.

At the Buffalo the 22BRT and the 30-30 were shooting very well, however, I was beat up pretty severly by the conditions. My best finsih with the 22 was 10th and my best finish with the 30-30 was 8th. The 22 seemed to really love a hot load of Benchmark for velocities in the mid 3600fps range. The 30-30 was shooting well with H4198 running around 3250fps.

Michael
 
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mturner said:
Since I have been playing with the 22BRT, I have had to play with the tune just like the guys loading around me. Those who say that 30's are just as hard to keep in tune as the 22's and 6's are just wrong. The guys that shoot 30BR's have seen first hand how much easier it is to keep them in tune. On the other hand, those 30 shooters who say a 30 can't go out of tune are wrong. You just have a wider window. One easy way to see why my 30-30 stays in tune better is this. Every grain of powder in a 6PPC makes a velocity change of about 120fps, while in the 30-30 it only makes about 50 fps. This can lead to one bullet out of the group if you happen to throw a bad charge by .2 grains, and you are not right in the middle of your velocity node window. This would also mean that I have less velocity change with temperature change. The fact is, I shot the same load in New Braunfalls for three years (40gr Isreali 2015 with a 125gr Berger), and took home more than my fair share (36 in all) of trophies for top 3 finishers at both yardages for group and score.

Something that most don't know is that Dave Williams actually won the LV100 at Midland (Buffalo) with his 30BRX. The results will show he came in second, but his target was measured wrong. His agg. was a .179". He was showing me his targets (he had 4 mid .1" groups) when I noticed a group that was measured as a low .3". I told him "that's not a 3, that's a 2". He had it remeasured as a mid .2" group, but it was to late to have it changed. I told him as a 30 shooter, he should measure every group for himself. I still find my groups to be measured wrong. Some I catch, and some still go on the record measured wrong. Even at the TX state my .123" group was remeasured as a mid zero too late to be changed, so I took second. This is just a warning to all 30 cal. shooters, measure all of your targets before it's to late to make a change. I believe you have 30 minutes after the agg. is posted.

At the Buffalo the 22BRT and the 30-30 were shooting very well, however, I was beat up pretty severly by the conditions. My best finsih with the 22 was 10th and my best finish with the 30-30 was 8th. The 22 seemed to really love a hot load of Benchmark for velocities in the mid 3600fps range. The 30-30 was shooting well with H4198 running around 3250fps.

Michael
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Fine post Michael..... Excellent points.

cale
 
Appreciate the input Michael. Very Informative.



Looking at a different angle, another friend emailed the following recently:

Remember, the powders we use today are made from wood cellulose,when it used to be cotton, and there is where the problem is. Wood is not as stable burning as cotton.

Tony Carpenter
 
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