Fast!!!

Not Legal in NBRSA Registered Competition. The rule book is VERY specific, Rifles must be loaded one round at a time, by hand. Plus, the rules specifically do not allow magazines, clips, or any similiar loading devices.

Section B, about page 12 in Rule Book.

Of course, for non registered Competition, that's another story......jackie
 
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There is a short article about it on accurateshooter.com in which it is mentioned that it is attached to the rifle.
 
Boyd, This device is not attached to the rifle in any way. it's attached to the front rest and dose not touch the rifle at all.

Jackie, why do you say it's not legal, It's not a magazine. A magazine is part of a rifle and holds cartridges inside a rifle. Nor is it a clip which is also attached to the rifle.
It's just a device that holds the cartridges close to the feed port of the rifle.

It dose load one round at a time and it is hand operated, very much like other devices that are being used today and are deamed to be legal. There have been unlmitted rifles shot that have gravity feed mechanism's and they are deemed to be legal ??? so why are you so very quick to deem this to be not legal???

We shall see

Gene Bukys
 
Gene B said:
A magazine is part of a rifle and holds cartridges inside a rifle.
Click to expand...

OK - this is all about details, but if we are talking about details a magazine can easily be outside a rifle. Just look at a plain AK47 as an example, most of the cartridges are outside the rifle.


Gene B said:
It's just a device that holds the cartridges close to the feed port of the rifle.
Click to expand...

I guess this boils down to what is stated in the rule book as "similar device" is. It will perhaps give us an interesthing discussion though.

However, this is not new in any way. Similar devices was observed in northern Europe at least 10 years ago and quickly stoped by national rules.
 
The NBRSA rule book says, “such rifles shall be loaded by hand, one cartridge at a time,
and fired as a single shot. No magazine, clip or similar device
shall be allowed.” I predict that the powers that be will rule that this means that loaded rounds have to be placed in the action by shooters’ hands, as distinct from remotely actuating a process that causes rounds to fall into the action. I think that the invention is clever and apparently well made, but I believe that the intent of the rule is clear.
 
Gene, with the Unlimited Rifles, the shooter is still laying the cartridge in the loading gate by hand after each shot. I recall the top loader that Bart was demonstrating a while back.

I am simply stating what the rule book says. It states that all Rifles shall be loaded one round at a time, by hand, and that no magazines, clips, or simililiar devices are allowed. I would assume that this falls under "similiar devices". If not, then why did the writers of the rule even bother to put the words "similiar devices" in there.

Also, the demonstarion video shows a Rifle that is not under recoil, or being subjected to the rigors of the firing proccess.. I would assume that since getting the round in the Rifle is a rather precision proccess, the shooter would have to bring the Rifle in exactly the same position after each shot, or the round might miss the loading port.

That is, unless the item is attached in some way to the Rifle, which would open the door to the question as to whether it is part of the Rifle, and must be weighed with the Rifle.

I read the rules to say that a shooter must physically place each round, one at a time, in the Rifle as they are being fired. But, maybe I am wrong. It would not be the first time. This will be up to the "powers that be" to determine.

But all that being said, I am not all that sure that the thing would be any faster than you are right now, Gene, which is pretty darned fast. :D
.........jackie
 
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Like Russell said I would like to see the other side of the rifle. It does look nice and would help people like me that fumble. And yes to Jackie, if it recoils like my 300 wsm I don't think it will work right. If I can, I'll try a video of some of or faster shooters they don't need that thing!

Joe Salt
 
Boyd,

If the intent of the Rule is "clear", then why are we having this discussion..

I guess this is as it is with a lot of things, what we think is clear is open to interpretation......jackie
 
A little more info

Hope to be
An AK47 does not have a magazine. It has a clip and your right the clip is attached to the rifle and most of the cartridges are outside the physical rifle

I don't know about a similar device having been used in Europe and being declared illegal??? I’ve been on 7 world teams and have shot all around the world.

What I do know for sure is that the World Benchrest Federation has ruled on this device and has declared it to be legal !! Gram did this just this week.

Boyd
This device does in fact feed cartridges by hand one at a time. --- A feed release button must be hand operated to feed a single cartridge. There is no magazine or clip involved. This is simply a cartridge storage and dispensing device, If it sat on the bench top and dropped the cartridge into your hand would it be legal then???? It's not at all that much different than other devices that are attached to the joy stick of Farley type rests, or the device that is called a speed loader ?? I think??

With regard to "Powers that be" what or who exactly is that??? Are you referring to the Board of Directors that all of us elected???

Jackie
The unlimited devices I've seen do not require any hand manipulation of the cartridge at all. Simply opening the bolt allowed another cartridge to fall into the action with no input at all by the shooter.

I am saying that this is not a clip or magazine at all in that it is not attached to the rifle in any way. Therefore it is also not a similar device either. It’s much more like the other storage devices that hold cartridges close to the loading port, the only difference is that it dispenses directly into the action but you still have to feed a single cartridge by hand.

I agree with your comments about recoil. It may just make this not as user friendly as the video makes it seem. I again will tell you that this system does not in any way assist the guiding of the rifle nor does it in any way touch the rifle ---it is mounted on the front rest the same as other cartridge storage/dispensing devices.
My comments about “Powers to be” apply to you as well as Boyd.

Joe Salt
This is not a 300 WSM and does not recoil anywhere near like a 300 WSM
You are right it may be no faster than some people are capable of right now--- if that's the case then why all the objection to it???

Gene Bukys
 
clip, magazine

not wanting to get into a discussion of clip, magazine I copied this definition from wikipedia

A magazine is an ammunition storage and feeding device within or attached to a repeating firearm. Magazines may be integral to the firearm (fixed) or removable (detachable). The magazine functions by moving the cartridges stored in the magazine into a position where they may be loaded into the chamber by the action of the firearm. The detachable magazine is often referred to as a clip.[1][2]


Gene
 
thats what happens when one uses a poor source for a definition.
clip: used to hold rounds and feed rounds to a magazine...garand uses a 8 rd clip to feed its intergal magazine. a 45 revolver in 45acp uses full moon or half moon CLIPS to hold rounds for the cylinder.
magazine: used to store ammo. a large fixed placement or a small detachable/or fixed part of a gun. m1 carbines use magazines. semi auto m9 uses a detacable magazine to fill the magazine well of the gun.( from websters published dictionary:a compartment in some types of firearms, often a small, detachablebox,, in which cartridges are held to be fed into the firing chamber; a place building/storeroom where ammunition is stored.)
they are different in use, and the common ERROR is just that, an error, as they are not interchangable.
my error in thinking that on a gun sight people would know the difference.
wickapedia has no "standing" as the info can be posted by anyone and say nearly anything.....no documentaion of the info required.
mike in co

/
Gene B said:
not wanting to get into a discussion of clip, magazine I copied this definition from wikipedia i

A magazine is an ammunition storage and feeding device within or attached to a repeating firearm. Magazines may be integral to the firearm (fixed) or removable (detachable). The magazine functions by moving the cartridges stored in the magazine into a position where they may be loaded into the chamber by the action of the firearm. The detachable magazine is often referred to as a clip.[1][2]


Gene
Click to expand...
 
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Read my Post about how this was tried by Lester Bruno with BAD results.
Paul Ryan
 
I built 4 of those gravity fed magazines of which Lester got 2. Turned out to promote rapid feed ideas for BR primarily in rail guns, which in turn prompted many clubs to improve the backers systems which has resulted in far fewer double hole problems in backers. It used to be a big problem before feeding assist mechanisms. So even though they were banned it turned out to be a benefit for all competitors.
 
Mike

If my source is poor, just what is the good source of your definition????

Also please provide the "standing" and complete documentation for the information source that you have provided. otherwise it carries less weight than the source that I quoted.

Jackie
I have no idea what your talking about ????


Jerry
I am aware of the gravity feed mechanism that Lester had tried to use. I was not aware that it was you that had built them -- I should have been able to guess though.
I also understand that the reason that particular device was deemed to be illegal was because it was attached to the rifle and did not stand alone.

Gene Bukys
 
Gene, the rule book uses the term "by hand" as an adverb. If you look up the definition of "by hand", it states that you perform a function without the aid of a machine.

One definition of a "machine" is given in the link I provided. This device in the video does fit the criteria of being a machine, so by deductive reasoning, it would be in violation of the term 'by hand' as laid out in the rule book.

That is, if one chooses to go by actual definition. The men who originolly wrote this rule specifically made points that cannot be ignored, "single shot", "one round at a time" "by hand", "similiar device", seem on the surface to be pretty exact in their meaning.

But, as I said before, the very fact that we are having this conversation shows that this is not the case.

I went over to 6MMBR.COM and read the bulletin on this. They come up with that same old lame crap about Benchrest Shooters "fearing change". They simply ignore the fact that both Sanctioning Bodies have specific procedures for determining the legality of any product.

Mr Gonzales should present his device to the proper authority to get an official ruling if it is to be used in Registered Competition/.......jackie
 
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IMO..A device like this isnt gonna save much time in reloading for an experienced run-n-gun shooter shooting a 5 shot group. Maybe it would in 10 shot Unlimited.
 
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