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Big Al
Guest
Am I the only one that has gotten a little tired of this same old song and dance that has been around for nearly 50 years? It seems like there is a time table for these stories. Do a web search and count the stories.
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TRA
Guest
FWIW Blackwater has changed their name due to bad press about their activities. I believe it is now Xe.
BTW An M14 with an overdrive will not last any longer, neither will the shooter.Thats why there were very few issued with full auto capabilities.
The full auto AR is a colossal mistake.
There was a gunfight in a crowded Ohio bar, 5 shooters, that lasted 3 mins and no one was hit. It seams the same thing is happening in the middle east
BTW An M14 with an overdrive will not last any longer, neither will the shooter.Thats why there were very few issued with full auto capabilities.
The full auto AR is a colossal mistake.
There was a gunfight in a crowded Ohio bar, 5 shooters, that lasted 3 mins and no one was hit. It seams the same thing is happening in the middle east
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flatlander
Guest
I have no past military experience, but have put over 30,000rds through various ARs (mostly service rifle configuration) over the past 12yrs. of highpower competition. When you hang a good barrel off the "piece of junk", they'll shoot lights-out from 200 to 600yds. The one-and-only alibi I've had with an AR was due to my failure to fully seat a magazine after the reload in a string of RF prone. While shooting 600yd. slow prone at Whittington Center during the '98 NM Regionals, with a howling wind blowing all sort of nice coal mine tailings grit around, a bolt match rifle shooter to my left withdrew, stating "I've already lapped the lugs on my bolt once.", while a M14 shooter on the right withdrew after he was no longer able to get his rifle's bolt to go into battery. My "piece of junk" just kept on chugging, putting all 22 of my 80gr Sierra MKs into the black.
To the heart of the matter - it took me over an hour back in the comfort of an air-conditioned motel room - with a couple of cold brews to help me relax after spending hours out in that wind & grit - to get said grit out of all the nooks & crannies while the bore was soaking in solvent. When I was finished, I knew I had a warm shower in the next room to look forward to, the rest of the 6-pack to wash down a delivery pizza, and the thought of my lovely wife modeling her new bikini for me.
Our guys & gals in the Middle East don't have it quite so good, and their lives may depend on having the time & a fairly dust & grit-free place where they can strip & clean their weapons. Plus, they never know whether they'll have time to do a truly thorough job before they're going to need the weapon again.
To the heart of the matter - it took me over an hour back in the comfort of an air-conditioned motel room - with a couple of cold brews to help me relax after spending hours out in that wind & grit - to get said grit out of all the nooks & crannies while the bore was soaking in solvent. When I was finished, I knew I had a warm shower in the next room to look forward to, the rest of the 6-pack to wash down a delivery pizza, and the thought of my lovely wife modeling her new bikini for me.
Our guys & gals in the Middle East don't have it quite so good, and their lives may depend on having the time & a fairly dust & grit-free place where they can strip & clean their weapons. Plus, they never know whether they'll have time to do a truly thorough job before they're going to need the weapon again.
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hecksf
Guest
The issues with the AR platform reliability are well known and have been around for years.
The M4, M16A2, and A4 we have now is a bit better than the A1's and CAR15's that I came in with. But they are still built on the same platform.
I like the way the M4 handles. When it runs it is great but it is the Mazda Miata of assualt rifles. It handles like a dream but doesn't have enough horsepower to get out of its own way.
There are better rifles and calibers available. But making suggestions like "everybody needs to go back to the 03" aren't going to make things move along.
We are getting better rifles in limited fielding now. But they are heavier and as of yet don't shoot as accuratly and have some small issues to be worked out such as poor cheek weld and cracking butstocks.
But we probably won't get a different caliber. On that account the generals are just being cheap.
I agree with NesikaChad, if you keep it wet you can keep it running.
I like Mobile 1. It is cheap, holds up under heat and has a detergent aditive which makes clean up easier.
Always keep a magazine in the well, keep the dustcover closed when you aren't shooting, and shoot the MK262 ammo if it is available and you should do OK.
Ted
PS learn how to properley handle a Brass over Bolt malfunction as fast as possible and keep the old sectioned steel cleaning rod in your inventory. The pull thru type don't work for knocking debris out of the muzzle or a piece of stripped brass out of the chamber.
The M4, M16A2, and A4 we have now is a bit better than the A1's and CAR15's that I came in with. But they are still built on the same platform.
I like the way the M4 handles. When it runs it is great but it is the Mazda Miata of assualt rifles. It handles like a dream but doesn't have enough horsepower to get out of its own way.
There are better rifles and calibers available. But making suggestions like "everybody needs to go back to the 03" aren't going to make things move along.
We are getting better rifles in limited fielding now. But they are heavier and as of yet don't shoot as accuratly and have some small issues to be worked out such as poor cheek weld and cracking butstocks.
But we probably won't get a different caliber. On that account the generals are just being cheap.
I agree with NesikaChad, if you keep it wet you can keep it running.
I like Mobile 1. It is cheap, holds up under heat and has a detergent aditive which makes clean up easier.
Always keep a magazine in the well, keep the dustcover closed when you aren't shooting, and shoot the MK262 ammo if it is available and you should do OK.
Ted
PS learn how to properley handle a Brass over Bolt malfunction as fast as possible and keep the old sectioned steel cleaning rod in your inventory. The pull thru type don't work for knocking debris out of the muzzle or a piece of stripped brass out of the chamber.
I carried a M16 or Varient for 24yrs. I've fired 100's of thousands of rounds and have actually never had a malfunction because of the rifle. Number one cause of jams are the magazines. Some need a little tweaking (from cheap manufacturing or abuse) and some just need replaced. I treated my mags better than the rifle. I always had a standing order for every soldier to fire a fully loaded magazine of every mag he carried before we took them to combat. The other thing is to keep it properly oiled and the dust cover closed and crap out of the mag well. When you clean it, keep an eye out for anything unusual.
But why argue about the M16 and it's varient....it's days are numbered....fired it's replacement and some of it's accessories and varients a few weeks ago....nice but time will tell the true story.....just like it has for the M16.
Hovis
But why argue about the M16 and it's varient....it's days are numbered....fired it's replacement and some of it's accessories and varients a few weeks ago....nice but time will tell the true story.....just like it has for the M16.
Hovis
H
hecksf
Guest
I agree with Hovis that a lot of malfunctions can be caused by bad Magazines. But my experience has been a bit different. I have seen a few malfunctions that weren't magazine related.
In particular in Afghanistan there is a lot of powdery "moon dust" When a guy goes diving into the dirt and his gun gets jammed into that moon dust and it gets into the chamber it can cause a malfunction. The best way to deal with it is wet it down, wash it out, and get back into the fight.
I have also seen the rim striped off by the extractor and the only way to get running again was with a cleaning rod down the bore. I have seen this same issue on an M60 as well but never on the GPMG.
When the M4's were initially issued they came with a double heat shield under the hand guard and the ability to cook off under high fire volume.
The first time it happened to one of our teams everybody thought the guy holding the weapon was a dolt and he just about got sent back down to his old unit and lost a lot of respect and credibility. But then it happened to other guys and they started to figure out the issue.
I have never had a gun go down because of to much carbon in the bolt group or chamber but I am sure that it can happen. I haven't been under a siege like those boys in the 173rd were (the story that prompted this thread). If they say they maintained their weapons before the battle then I will trust their word.
There is a reason why many soldiers are issued back up firearms.
Because of supply issues and equipment responsibility some guys are reluctant to get rid of bad magazines. So many times bad magazines stay in circulation. I recomend smashing the magazine and then taking it into supply for a replacement. If it is smashed flat they can't reissue it to someone else.
There are a lot of ROMANTIC memories of weapons gone by. But the fact is none of them were perfect. I am sure at one time some old guy complained that his new M1903 wasn't half the gun that his M1892 was.
The M1 garands of WWII never realized the high rate and volume of fire that the AR platform of today has to put up with. Nor did they realize the accuracy that our current rifles are capable of.
Ted
In particular in Afghanistan there is a lot of powdery "moon dust" When a guy goes diving into the dirt and his gun gets jammed into that moon dust and it gets into the chamber it can cause a malfunction. The best way to deal with it is wet it down, wash it out, and get back into the fight.
I have also seen the rim striped off by the extractor and the only way to get running again was with a cleaning rod down the bore. I have seen this same issue on an M60 as well but never on the GPMG.
When the M4's were initially issued they came with a double heat shield under the hand guard and the ability to cook off under high fire volume.
The first time it happened to one of our teams everybody thought the guy holding the weapon was a dolt and he just about got sent back down to his old unit and lost a lot of respect and credibility. But then it happened to other guys and they started to figure out the issue.
I have never had a gun go down because of to much carbon in the bolt group or chamber but I am sure that it can happen. I haven't been under a siege like those boys in the 173rd were (the story that prompted this thread). If they say they maintained their weapons before the battle then I will trust their word.
There is a reason why many soldiers are issued back up firearms.
Because of supply issues and equipment responsibility some guys are reluctant to get rid of bad magazines. So many times bad magazines stay in circulation. I recomend smashing the magazine and then taking it into supply for a replacement. If it is smashed flat they can't reissue it to someone else.
There are a lot of ROMANTIC memories of weapons gone by. But the fact is none of them were perfect. I am sure at one time some old guy complained that his new M1903 wasn't half the gun that his M1892 was.
The M1 garands of WWII never realized the high rate and volume of fire that the AR platform of today has to put up with. Nor did they realize the accuracy that our current rifles are capable of.
Ted
Ted,
The only time I ever had a bad malfunction was during a live-fire training exercise and I figured out what did it and made sure it would never happen again. Some thought I was a little silly at times because I would use cling-wrap on place on my weapon where sand/grime could get in. I usually wrap a small piece over the muzzle, a two inch wide piece around the mag/mag well, and a piece by the cocking lever. All of which would come off actual use without interfernce. The one other item I carried with me all the time was a small pipe cleaner. I always checked the hole in the buttstock to make sure it was clear....stops the short strokes.
Oh well, at least were not talking about waist high nylons.....
Hovis
The only time I ever had a bad malfunction was during a live-fire training exercise and I figured out what did it and made sure it would never happen again. Some thought I was a little silly at times because I would use cling-wrap on place on my weapon where sand/grime could get in. I usually wrap a small piece over the muzzle, a two inch wide piece around the mag/mag well, and a piece by the cocking lever. All of which would come off actual use without interfernce. The one other item I carried with me all the time was a small pipe cleaner. I always checked the hole in the buttstock to make sure it was clear....stops the short strokes.
Oh well, at least were not talking about waist high nylons.....
Hovis
T
TRA
Guest
What is the best Battle Rifle today?
Impossible to get a rational consensus there . I'd take an AR-M~~~ and never look back, The 308 followers will die from exhaustion carrying the weapon and ammo. The best way to survive, is to not get shot.
The special forces have every toy made and still use the AR platform most of the time.
No particular battle rifle ever won a battle or war.
Impossible to get a rational consensus there . I'd take an AR-M~~~ and never look back, The 308 followers will die from exhaustion carrying the weapon and ammo. The best way to survive, is to not get shot.
The special forces have every toy made and still use the AR platform most of the time.
No particular battle rifle ever won a battle or war.
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NesikaChad
Guest
Lubes.
I've used "used" motor oil, gear oil, diesel, CLP, some funky white teflon chit, grease, basically what ever I could get my hands on at the time.
Grease would be the least favorite for anything other than a service rifle because it just doesn't seem to lend well over a long day of emptying magazines. Cakes and breaks down.
I've used "used" motor oil, gear oil, diesel, CLP, some funky white teflon chit, grease, basically what ever I could get my hands on at the time.
Grease would be the least favorite for anything other than a service rifle because it just doesn't seem to lend well over a long day of emptying magazines. Cakes and breaks down.
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TRA
Guest
Sorry it blew past you
Maybe Chads storytelling would be more to your liking.
Again I must apologize for responding to your question.
Maybe Chads storytelling would be more to your liking.
Again I must apologize for responding to your question.
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Chuck W
Guest
What happened to LSA? (Am I dating myself?) While using that stuff as directed I, nor any of my fellow grunts, ever had problems, even in an intense firefight w/ VC or NVA. Couldn't shoot a decent group but it sure could empty 20 rounds in a hurry. Is the current problem operator error or an engineering problem?
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hecksf
Guest
I am going to say that Special Forces DOESN"T have every toy made.
SF A-teams are stuck in most instances with the big army calibers.
When a special forces A-team is in a big tic with or taking a lot of heat at their own door step and they call for more ammo they have to take what the big army is going to send them......and it aint going to be 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel. IF they need spare parts they aren't going to have a lot of pieces for some super wazoo doodad laying around Bagram or that vacation spot Anaconda (if you can get those guys out of the coffee shop). You will see the 300 winmag and 338 lapua occasionally but those are used such a limited amount that supply isn't an issue. Also putting 45 ACP back into the inventory wasn't that difficult since most groups held on to a bunch of their 1911's and 45 ACP has always remained in the inventory and had a readily available DODAC.
Also I am not sure what an "AR M" is???
Ted
PS
I think the Barrett 468 is a better gun than the M4 but doesn't seem quite as accurate but I am sure in time it will be. If it was chambered in 6.2Heck or 6mmAR it would be near perfect.
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hecksf
Guest
Also I don't think the 7.62 followers will die of exhaustion. Yes it sucks carrying all of that crap when you are up around 13,000 feet but some of them boys are studs and I am sure they can handle it.
Chuck
LSA is no longer seen that much but I think it is still in the inventory. The common issue is BreakFree.
But like I said Mobile 1 is good kit. Except for the MK19 which needs lithium grease.
Ted
Chuck
LSA is no longer seen that much but I think it is still in the inventory. The common issue is BreakFree.
But like I said Mobile 1 is good kit. Except for the MK19 which needs lithium grease.
Ted
T
TRA
Guest
hechsf
Is that right, I had no idea they would lower themselves to ask for help, OH I almost forgot Afghanistan.
The truth is the "best" battle rifle, is the one that allows you to return home, stud or not.
Ar-M~~~....well lets see AR15, M4,M16,XM177,etc,etc,etc,,,,,,I would have thought all the weapons experts on this topic would have picked up on that easily, guess I was wrong.
Is that right, I had no idea they would lower themselves to ask for help, OH I almost forgot Afghanistan.
The truth is the "best" battle rifle, is the one that allows you to return home, stud or not.
Ar-M~~~....well lets see AR15, M4,M16,XM177,etc,etc,etc,,,,,,I would have thought all the weapons experts on this topic would have picked up on that easily, guess I was wrong.
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hecksf
Guest
Well
An expert is someone who knows everything and can't learn anything more.
So I recon I'm not an expert. Just a guy who's been a couple of places.
An expert is someone who knows everything and can't learn anything more.
So I recon I'm not an expert. Just a guy who's been a couple of places.
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Pete Wass
Well-known member
What about the 6.8 ?
I assume that will be made on the AR type platform? I was looking again today at an article in the Rifleman about the M4 and it showed the part that holds the barrel. Hard to believe that is robust enough to make a good rifle. The barrels must whip a lot I would think. I know there is a lot of concern that 700 Remington actions aren't stiff enough because of the mag cut out. If that be so, the AR's certainly must be a whole lot less stiff.
I assume that will be made on the AR type platform? I was looking again today at an article in the Rifleman about the M4 and it showed the part that holds the barrel. Hard to believe that is robust enough to make a good rifle. The barrels must whip a lot I would think. I know there is a lot of concern that 700 Remington actions aren't stiff enough because of the mag cut out. If that be so, the AR's certainly must be a whole lot less stiff.
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TRA
Guest
Pretty hard to compare a Bolt action to a Military semi/full auto.
This can be nit picked to death but essentially all the receiver does on an AR platform is hold up the rear sight and attach the trigger, hold the magazine.
The bolt in a lot of weapons designed this way float and the receiver has little affect on them.
I'm sure their are some that will disagree, but theres no way to compare the two different designs.
If the barrel is whipping, the bolt is going with it, as the bolt is connected to the barrel and not the receiver.
Camp Perry has been won with an AR platform, competing against Tube Guns, and bolt guns.
This can be nit picked to death but essentially all the receiver does on an AR platform is hold up the rear sight and attach the trigger, hold the magazine.
The bolt in a lot of weapons designed this way float and the receiver has little affect on them.
I'm sure their are some that will disagree, but theres no way to compare the two different designs.
If the barrel is whipping, the bolt is going with it, as the bolt is connected to the barrel and not the receiver.
Camp Perry has been won with an AR platform, competing against Tube Guns, and bolt guns.
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