Entering the upper load zone - final questions

U

upandcoming

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After spending about 2 years in the middle and low load window (6ppc), actually most of the time in the lower window, I am now looking into entering the upper load. Several reason for this really, but my current barrel is just hard to get in tune so I consider this a possibility to perhaps making things work again as I expect them to. In addition it will contribute to clear another area of my 6ppc loading experience, so hopefully I can get two things sorted out at the same time - if I am lucky that is. I have now spent quite some time reading about this upper load window, but I still have some questions that I really can’t find the answer to. Hopefully someone can direct me through this.

First of all I do not full length sizing at the time being loading mostly < 28.5 gr. of vv 133, but as I understand this is necessity when entering this “new” area? But do you do this for EVERY reload that you do? I do have a Redding small base body die and this will perhaps do the job as a start – or should I simply go the whole way from the beginning? Of course it would be extra work entering two different dies ... Since I am waiting for my new Rimrock I new F/L die could be a good thing to buy with the barrels I have ordered?

About brass wear I agree that fresh brass shoots the best, at least that is my experience from what it’s worth, and I understand that you "throw away" brass after a full two-gun match or so. But is the brass still good to go for training still shooting in the upper load window, or is the stress of using 30+ gr. of vv133 simply too much in the long run?
 
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I full length resize after ever firing with a Redding die and I load in the upper bracket.

While I may be different to everyone else I tend to use my cases for more than one 2 gun match. Generally I will make one set of cases for a barrel and retire the cases when I retire the barrel.

For an example on one barrel, that I had used for 2 X 2gun matches and a 10 shot yardage, I used at a major match to finish 11th in the 2 gun, it shot the smallest two gun agg ever using the same brass for all matches. Another barrel which I had used for 3 X 2 gun matches I finished 4th in the 2 gun at it's next major match, I used the same brass for all matches with this barrel.
It could be just me but I can't seem to prove to myself that new brass shoots better than old brass............Ian Owen
 
Upandcoming

As brass workhardens it's springback is greater so you may have to set the shoulder back further to allow for the added springback. I think the reason that many people use new brass at important matches is that it cycles better. There are arguments about consistent neck tension and such but if you are "running" your group at a big match, you don't want the gun upset in the bags while trying to extract, etc. Workhardened brass will size but after firing it springs back and may be more difficult to extract and thus upset the rhythm and such. The old brass is still serviceable for practice and if you are a picker, slower extraction may not be a problem. Randy J.
 
upandcoming said:
After spending about 2 years in the middle and low load window (6ppc), actually most of the time in the lower window, I am now looking into entering the upper load. Several reason for this really, but my current barrel is just hard to get in tune so I consider this a possibility to perhaps making things work again as I expect them to. In addition it will contribute to clear another area of my 6ppc loading experience, so hopefully I can get two things sorted out at the same time - if I am lucky that is. I have now spent quite some time reading about this upper load window, but I still have some questions that I really can’t find the answer to. Hopefully someone can direct me through this.

First of all I do not full length sizing at the time being loading mostly < 28.5 gr. of vv 133, but as I understand this is necessity when entering this “new” area? But do you do this for EVERY reload that you do? I do have a Redding small base body die and this will perhaps do the job as a start – or should I simply go the whole way from the beginning? Of course it would be extra work entering two different dies ... Since I am waiting for my new Rimrock I new F/L die could be a good thing to buy with the barrels I have ordered?

About brass wear I agree that fresh brass shoots the best, at least that is my experience from what it’s worth, and I understand that you "throw away" brass after a full two-gun match or so. But is the brass still good to go for training still shooting in the upper load window, or is the stress of using 30+ gr. of vv133 simply too much in the long run?
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I find it humorous that benchresters go to all this trouble to get custom dies that match the chambers of their rifles more closely than any other rifles on Earth so as to lessen the amount of work hardening that takes place under sizing and firing and then some of those same guys throw the brass away after one weekend.:rolleyes: Lapua 220 russian brass is harder than the back of my head and will take one hell of a pounding-more so than any other brass I've ever worked with (and that's about all of them) and if the primer pockets are too loose to hold a primer after one match, then you are shooting a load that is a ticking time bomb and you should be more worried about your's and other's safety than your brass.

If you have dies that are setup properly dimensionally, FL sizing does not noticeably work your brass any more than neck sizing does. And if your sizing is working like this, you can still shoot fine with "old" brass. Heck, I just shot a teen agg and won a 2 gun with brass that has been fired in 8 matches and has been used for practice for 16 months inbetween the matches. By some people's measure, this brass is fossilized! Yet it works FINE.

And another note, I wouldn't try and "force" a barrel into anything. Sometimes they just won't like what you want them to like and forcing your will upon it isn't going to help your aggs. Like the movie title says, "Some like it hot", but some may not. Just because so and so shoots a dump truck load full of N133 doesn't mean you should too.
 
goodgrouper said:
And another note, I wouldn't try and "force" a barrel into anything. Sometimes they just won't like what you want them to like and forcing your will upon it isn't going to help your aggs. Like the movie title says, "Some like it hot", but some may not. Just because so and so shoots a dump truck load full of N133 doesn't mean you should too.
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I kind of agree on this one, but I hate to admit that I might have a fresh new barrel that want shoot...
 
Randy J. said:
As brass workhardens it's springback is greater so you may have to set the shoulder back further to allow for the added springback. I think the reason that many people use new brass at important matches is that it cycles better. Randy J.
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I have not found that to be true in any way, shape or form. If you have ever measured brass with a headspace gauge after firing and sizing or even measuring before and after trimming for that matter, you will find that brass near the end of it's life moves much less. It often requires you to remove shims from the FL sizer just to get it pushed back enough to work again. The reason you think new brass cycles better is probably because your old brass isn't being pushed back enough anymore and your getting the "click" upon opening the bolt. This indeed is not good for your bags as it does unsettle things but the reason why your getting this result is opposite of what you think. Just my 2 cents, tifwiw.
 
upandcoming said:
I kind of agree on this one, but I hate to admit that I might have a fresh new barrel that want shoot...
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By all means then, try the upper window. If it doesn't like medium or lower nodes, going up is about all you can do. But go up incrementally and look for accuracy. Don't just try to make 30.5 grains work because somebody else is using that charge. You might find that 30.1 grains shoots lights out!
 
goodgrouper

What do you think you are doing when you remove shims!!! You are sizing more. Why? The shape of the die didn't change. You have to force worked brass smaller because once removed from the die, it will spring back more than freshly annealed brass and by sizing smaller it ends up with the same headspace as before when less sizing was needed. Maybe springback is not the proper term. Just so you know, I have measured brass with a headspace gauge, many times. That is how I know when I have to remove shims to maintain my headspace. Randy J.
 
As brass is FL sized and fired through a number of such cycles, it becomes progressively more work hardened. As this takes place, in order to maintain the same amount of shoulder bump, the die has to be turned slightly closer to the shell holder. If one sets up a die to bump the shoulder back .001 for a thrice fired case, and uses the same die setting for a case that has been fired ,with warm loads, and FL sized a dozen times, running the case through the die will not bump the shoulder. The die will have to be screwed in a smidge.

As brass work hardens, the amount that it will spring back from a given amount of sizing increases. A die that gives the minimal amount of base sizing needed to work with relatively new brass may not size the lower part of a case, that has been sized and fired numerous times, enough for easy chambering. This is why I like to use old work hardened brass to determine FL die to chamber compatibility. It gives me the worst case condition, and if it can handle that, then it will work for any case from that chamber.
 
Body die + neck = F/L size?

Would a body die and then a neck die do the same job as the F/L custom dies given that the body die has the correct dimensions? Or is there something fishy about this. Sure, it is more job, I know ...
 
I think the fishiness is in the assumption that both dies are concentric with each other.

Mike Swartz
 
Upandcoming...how many different lots of powder have you tried???
If you are working with one lot of N133...you lack of agging accuracy may be the powder lot just isn't capable...try some different year/lots of N133 before you decide to try the upper window...
 
I guess we get so used to "shooting in the upper window" that we totally ignore what is recommened by the powder manufacturer. If I remember right the VV load manual lists 28.3 grains of 133 as max for the 6ppc. How easily we consider 28.5 grains a mild load. I usually shoot around 28.5 and I find that I have to full length size after each firing.
 
eww1350 said:
Upandcoming...how many different lots of powder have you tried???
If you are working with one lot of N133...you lack of agging accuracy may be the powder lot just isn't capable...try some different year/lots of N133 before you decide to try the upper window...
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Tried only two but got some 05/2008 now which is up for testing the next few weeks. Could of course be one answer - simply have to test it.
 
Have you tried

anything other than N-133? A friend once forgot her N-133 and had to use N-130. It worked great in her rifle. There is also H-4198 to consider or even 1680. I got to tell ya, if I were shooting PPC'c I would be looking for ANYTHING ELSE other than N-133.
 
Donald said:
I guess we get so used to "shooting in the upper window" that we totally ignore what is recommened by the powder manufacturer. If I remember right the VV load manual lists 28.3 grains of 133 as max for the 6ppc. How easily we consider 28.5 grains a mild load. I usually shoot around 28.5 and I find that I have to full length size after each firing.
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I've not seen the newest VV manual, but in the past, they have made the same error as everybody else that's ever put a ppc in their manual. They use the wrong BRASS! Why in the world does every manual use Sako or Norma brass to test with???? They are simply regurgitating old info from decades ago and seem to be oblivious to the fact that 99.9% of everyone shooting this cartridge today uses Lapua brass thereby rendering their information useless.

Then add to the fact that VV has always been "lawyer intimidated" and has listed the max load for every cartridge at laughable levels. They are so mild that I consider their manual a waste of money (unless you like the articles and such).
 
Pay real close attention to this statement. Not what he means but from what platform he says it:

Pete Wass said:
if I were shooting PPC'c I would be looking for ANYTHING ELSE other than N-133.
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Sorry Pete, but I think this kind of advice is why we have a Competitive forum now. You know, so the new guy can get advice from guys who actually do shoot the stuff they give advice about and there are equipment lists to prove it. Which, by the way, if you were to look at one, will show the vast majority of shooters use N133 and do just fine with it.

I realize you do shoot competitively, but not group and not with a 6ppc. I don't shoot score or hunter class and you will never catch me giving advice on a public forum about what powder to use in a 30x47 or a 30br (until I own one).

I know, I know, I'm an honery bugger. But I just have a pet peeve about this kind of thing. Partly due to the fact that when I started out, I recieved bad information from someone who I thought competed and they used what they were talking about only to find out later that they didn't and it cost me big bucks and lots of lost time. Life's to short to chase your tail in this game.

To give advice to a newbie not to try N133 or steer him away from it is absurd. N133 and the 6ppc go together like peas and carrots. Yeah, sure, 8208 and T work great too. But you didn't mention those. You steered him into powders that have not won enough wood to make a tooth pick out of. The fact is, N133 is probably the most forgiving powder in a 6ppc there's ever been. And I've shot it from 10 degrees up to 110 degrees over a chronograph and there's been nothing else that's held it's velocities better. It's not perfect by any means, but the rates of change were better with it than anything else.
 
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If you had been visitin here any length of time

goodgrouper said:
Pay real close attention to this statement. Not what he means but from what platform he says it:




Sorry Pete, but I think this kind of advice is why we have a Competitive forum now. You know, so the new guy can get advice from guys who actually do shoot the stuff they give advice about and there are equipment lists to prove it. Which, by the way, if you were to look at one, will show the vast majority of shooters use N133 and do just fine with it.

I realize you do shoot competitively, but not group and not with a 6ppc. I don't shoot score or hunter class and you will never catch me giving advice on a public forum about what powder to use in a 30x47 or a 30br (until I own one).

I know, I know, I'm an honery bugger. But I just have a pet peeve about this kind of thing. Partly due to the fact that when I started out, I recieved bad information from someone who I thought competed and they used what they were talking about only to find out later that they didn't and it cost me big bucks and lots of lost time. Life's to short to chase your tail in this game.

To give advice to a newbie not to try N133 or steer him away from it is absurd. N133 and the 6ppc go together like peas and carrots. Yeah, sure, 8208 and T work great too. But you didn't mention those. You steered him into powders that have not won enough wood to make a tooth pick out of. The fact is, N133 is probably the most forgiving powder in a 6ppc there's ever been. And I've shot it from 10 degrees up to 110 degrees over a chronograph and there's been nothing else that's held it's velocities better. It's not perfect by any means, but the rates of change were better with it than anything else.
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You would realize that I have been contributing here for a dozen years or more. You would also know that I am not a leming. I have often ventured off in other directions than others and often with success.

Perhaps the reason there hasn't been much wood won with any of the powder metioned is most of the people who shoot benchrest are lemings. I have had great success with RL-7 for instance when others simply can't bare to use anything that isn't listed in the Equipment List.

If N-133 is the most forgiving powder that was ever made for the 6 PPC, why is it that there is all this discussion about it not working and guns going out of tune all the time here. It that all a centrifuge to put Newbies Off ? I , frankly, get sick of reading it. It would seem to me that the lemmings would be more inclined to find solutions than whine or continue to practice the definition of insanity. It's frustrating !
 
Pete Wass said:
.....It would seem to me that the lemmings would be more inclined to find solutions than whine or continue to practice the definition of insanity. It's frustrating !
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C'MON O'Buck...... step back from the keyboard and relax a minnit. :) you're starting to sound about as logical as O'bammer with your "definition of insanity" plea....... (I'll NEVER hear that definition again without getting that gut-punched feeling :eek: )

Just because 133 is the best and most consistent powder available doesn't make it automatic! At the level a GROUP shooter must perform nothing is.......

This doesn't take anything away from 133.

Nor from the PPC.

al
 
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